Gone Over To the Christian Side

Gustav

Banned
Banned
a aquaintance of mine recently discovered jesus. whats worse is there is additional baggage such as hostility to science (evolution), belief in genesis...etc. an evangelical stance was also observed.

the subject was previously quite hostile towards theism.

kinda mortified. i need to understand the psychology behind the conversion also need some talking points to be employed if an effort is mounted to reclaim subject to a sane state. what are oft used arguments against this christian religion?

now, i do not begrudge anyone a religion but it appears subject is quite vocal and politically militant.

this does not bode well for my way of life. (pot smoking, free loving, hippie)

please advise
 
Gustav said:
a aquaintance of mine recently discovered jesus. whats worse is there is additional baggage such as hostility to science (evolution), belief in genesis...etc. an evangelical stance was also observed.

the subject was previously quite hostile towards theism.

kinda mortified. i need to understand the psychology behind the conversion also need some talking points to be employed if an effort is mounted to reclaim subject to a sane state. what are oft used arguments against this christian religion?

now, i do not begrudge anyone a religion but it appears subject is quite vocal and politically militant.

this does not bode well for my way of life. (pot smoking, free loving, hippie)

please advise
*************
M*W: As we say here in Texas, "don't let the door hit you in the ass" (when you're walking out).

Another thing we say here in Texas is to wish them K-MAG-YOYO.

"Kiss My Ass, Good-bye, You're On Your Own."
 
thanks but no thanks
i prefer and am looking for a pro active approach
leaving christians to their own devices is exactly what has emboldened them to be hardliners
 
Gustav,

Don't fight a militant attitude with more millitancy; it simply leads to escalation and a worse result.

Do the reverse. As the militant and aggressive attitude increases meet it with proportional increases in politeness and genuine enquiry. Meet each assertion with meek and mild requests for explanation and support.

You will not convince them by an aggressive frontal assault, they must be encouraged to think for themselves and to use their own sense of reason. If they are continuously exposed to questions that make them face their irrational assertions they should eventually question their own position. However, when they meet and mix together they will reinforce each others irrationality and feel happy doing so.

But you will need to understand their arguments since they have had 2000 years to develop significant propaganda and skilled indoctrination techniques. You must face their baseless assertions with knowledge and logic.

For evolution issues see www.talkorigins.org

For arguments on logic see http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

Be assured that their arguments have absolutely no evidence or support and they will jump through hoops claiming that evidence is not needed.

Issues of faith will surface early and they will confuse evidential faith with religious blind faith and treat them as if they are the same. Evidential faith is better known as inductive reasoning that we use everyday and is common place in science. Religious or blind faith is the belief that something is true despite the total absence of factual support. It is simple irrationality.

An early request will be for you to join them and they will say that the only way to know that their beliefs are true is to genuinely pray and ask their god for guidance, and then he will show you the truth.

You will need to very politely insist that they demonstrate that he exists first before you agree to talk to him. Never give in on this point because as soon as you do it will make them think they are making progress.

Apart from that having a real knowledge and experience of their trickery is the only real way to avoid the pitfalls. But never resort to angry or abusive outbursts, that will encourage them and convince them you need help.
 
Gustav,

leaving christians to their own devices is exactly what has emboldened them to be hardliners
Agreed - time to fight back.
 
Cris said:
An early request will be for you to join them and they will say that the only way to know that their beliefs are true is to genuinely pray and ask their god for guidance, and then he will show you the truth.

this has already happened.
i rarely feel any real emotion when on this board but right now i am frothing mad when recollecting the sly and devious tactics employed. the subject was consciously try to play me for a fool.

chris
do you think that christians know that they are conning themselves or are they really delusional? i find it hard to believe that humans can be that irrational.

i think this subject is deliberately choosing not to confront or resolve the problems inherent in the religion.

everytime i see these people i think..."you know you are faking it"

i would find it a very stressful situation. like schizophrenia
 
Cris said:
Gustav,

Agreed - time to fight back.

absolutely. what i see with these christians is an urge to turn back the clock to an entirely mythical period in time where everything was "perfect."

they exibit hostility towards modern societies, towards science, have issues with secular govts, condemn the legal system as suffering from "relativism"

they will not rest until we all live under their interpretations of ancient biblical crap! it is nothing but religious facism!

it is us, the secular humanists that give everyone a fair shake. we let everyone have the freedom of religion. what do we get in return?

christians! christians that attempt to legislate discriminatory laws that seek to restrict my freedom. they will eventually seek to punish and kill all those that do not share in their faith and act in a manner, contrary to thier beliefs.

this is why it is imperative we not get complacent about this threat.

we made it thru one dark age, let us not suffer another! :D
 
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The guy is probably desperate if behaves hostile to things against Christianity. Trying to find a solution to his problem so he resorts to religion.
 
Gustav said:
this has already happened.
i rarely feel any real emotion when on this board but right now i am frothing mad when recollecting the sly and devious tactics employed. the subject was consciously try to play me for a fool.

chris
do you think that christians know that they are conning themselves or are they really delusional? i find it hard to believe that humans can be that irrational.

i think this subject is deliberately choosing not to confront or resolve the problems inherent in the religion.

everytime i see these people i think..."you know you are faking it"

i would find it a very stressful situation. like schizophrenia
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M*W: Gustav, you bring up a very good point. So often when someone 'suddenly' embraces a religion and becomes pushy, he or she may be experiencing a mental phenomenon such as found in bi-polarism or schizophrenia. If you want to help your friend, perhaps you should suggest he/she get psychiatric help. I've seen this occur in a lot of people. They tend to believe they are the only sane one around. They also tend to become paranoid even about people they know well. I'm inclined to think this might be the case with your friend.
 
Usually the bi-polarism or schizophrenia is exhibited by the pot-head or drug addict more often than the religious neophite.

Christians wouldn't be hostile to 'science' if 'science' wasn't actively hostile also.
Science has never been 'neutral', and when it occasionally is neutral, neutrality is never neutral.

I doubt you can 'convert' a Christian 'back' to evolutionism or agnosticism. The experience that Christianity grants is overwhelmingly real emotionally and meets needs you cannot possibly substitute for. At best you can destroy your friend by spiking their softdrink or selling drugs to their kids.

My advice is leave them alone, and if you don't want to become a Christian, drop them off your 'friend/co-dependant' list. They are no longer going to 'enable' you in your drug addiction.

Find another co-dependant. Don't bother trying to re-corrupt them into your moronic hedonistic life-style.
 
mountainhare said:
LOL, and then Einstuck claims that he isn't a Creationist...
Just what Creationist doctrine or position do you suppose I hold?

that the earth was created in 6 days?

Or that geological layers are 'necessary appearances of age' that God had to build into the earth?

Perhaps you think I believe that Adam's rib was the first cloning operation?

Or maybe we are thinking that Adam and Eve fathered mankind.

Why don't you just ask me point blank about a Creationist doctrine?

I'd like to see you twist anything I think into Creationism...this is going to be good.
 
Einstuck said:
Christians wouldn't be hostile to 'science' if 'science' wasn't actively hostile also.
Science has never been 'neutral', and when it occasionally is neutral, neutrality is never neutral.

can you elaborate on the above please?

ps: you make pertinent points and i will take them into consideration
 
It is a historical fact that after the poor performance of the Catholic church regarding Galileo, and during the Enlightenment and beyond, independant intelligent investigators of the natural sciences, including priests became increasingly disenchanted with the orthodox Christian religion.

It was only a matter of time that each generation, emboldened by the last, abandoned even Protestant religion, and perhaps religion entirely by the 19th century. It probably seemed that further apostacy was the 'only' course forward to those who wished to push the envelope in social 'evolution'.

While after the Galileo 'episode' the church (both Catholics and Protestants) rather rapidly disengaged themselves from open confrontation with 'science' no matter how improbable to their world view. In fact, from the sheer weight of humiliation in front of the world of reason, it is a fair assessment to say that the majority of bishops and priests in the 19th century abandoned conservative dogmatic positions entirely in a wholesale exodus.

The result was so shockingly dyslexic that Protestant and Catholic conservatives accused their complimentary 'liberal' counterparts of heresy and evidence that Protestantism/Catholicism was the 'AntiChrist'! But their voices were hardly heard in the rush to abandon traditional religion. For a while things were so confusing that you had Protestant leaders like Newman renouncing Anglicanism and converting to Catholicism and Jesuits espousing Darwin's theory of Evolution!

But all the while, the 'scientists' stubbornly refused to acknowledge the almost complete change of Western religious perception and sentiment, and continued to vehemently attack all (at least Christian) religion as a 'hostile' anti-reason force blinding and darkening mankind's ability to think clearly.

Yet this was and still is an absurd position. While most of mainstream and established religion abandoned dogmatic positions regarding 'science' and began to write volumnous tomes upon the complimentarity of science and religion, and the complete lack of overlap in their respective domains, popular 'science' continued its demonization of religion based upon the 400 year old and absurdly out of date characature of pre-Reformation Christianity inspired by the anomaly of the the 'Inquisition'.

In reality, while there were always (and still are) a minority of extreme conservative forces in modern Christianity, this 'fundamentalist' camp, although noisey, hardly represents more than a few percentage points of mainstream Christianity, either by laity or clergy, and certainly not in the published literature.

For instance, if one looks at the Oxford and Cambridge publications under religious study, or international journals on Christian theology, one finds almost nothing of fundamentalism. A perusal of the Anglican run Christian bookstore shows an amazing promulgation of titles, however none of them, even the most conservative apologetics show any sign of a 'Creationist' or anti-science bent.

The 'evolutionists' have been hysterically screaming into a vacuum, or else skirmishing with a small minority of stupid Americans from the 'bible belt', who actually don't represent even Christian America at all, but rather the vested interests of a Freemasonic Cult of Machiavellian pragmatism which really believes Carl Marx far more than Jesus Christ. In this instance, 'Christianity' is perceived by rich oil barons as an 'opiate' to keep Blacks under control, and whites organized to herd them like cattle. But this is a ludicrous American phenomenon, and not representative of Christianity anywhere else in the world.

In summary, American scientists are hysterical idiots, and so are American fundamentalists. Apparently they deserve each other.
 
nice

can you distingush b/w "orthodox" and "reformed". how far can the latter diverge from the original and yet remain within the "fold"

ie: can you reject genesis and still be considered one of the faithful? if some pronouncements are held suspect, why not all? why not write a new bible from scratch?

in any case, if the enlightened ones can interprete as they fit, i am sure the fundies have a similar right
 
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Einstuck is rationalizing his choice of religions. he rants about fanatical religionists not being an accurate cross section of christianity, then blames all of science as if a few fanatical atheist "scientists" have not also overshadowed their more neutral counterparts. the pot calling the kettle black.

the bottom lines is that science, performed according to it's fundamental rules will always be more rational than religion performed according to its fundamental rules. science attacks nothing, it merely searches for models of absolute truth. religion, on the other hand, merely claims it already has the ultimate truth, and tries to enforce that "truth".
 
how far can the latter diverge from the original and yet remain within the "fold"
This question is being decided as we speak, over issues like gay marriage. The Anglican church for instance, appears to be dividing in half, although in typical English style, quite peacefully. There doesn't seem to be any extremists or fundamentalists even involved. Just a lack of leadership, and large numbers of people pining for a simple era, or deeply struggling with fundamental (not Fundamental) definitions of 'sin'.
 
the bottom lines is that science, performed according to it's fundamental rules will always be more rational than religion performed according to its fundamental rules. science attacks nothing, it merely searches for models of absolute truth. religion, on the other hand, merely claims it already has the ultimate truth, and tries to enforce that "truth".
What makes me laugh also is the utter parallelism here.
There may have been a time that we could call the 'scientific era', but its over now.
Just as a hundred years ago we entered the 'post-Christian' era, as distasteful as that sounded to Christians, recently we have now passed through the 'scientific' era, (if there ever really was one) into the post-scientific era.

Just as the Christian agenda was essentially mauled and hijacked by utterly alien philosophies and belief-systems and now is only a wolf in sheep's clothing, so likewise the great golden age of scientific ideals has been utterly gutted and absorbed by the materialistic pragmatism that its philosophical world-view inadvertantly spawned.

Now criminals rule the world and conduct 'science' in secret cabals behind corporate barriers stamped 'no admittance'. Research is directed by military and corporate interests, not freely led by the questions and needs of pure scientific thought. The ideals of science, although kept alive in small pockets by dinosaurs like Linux programmers, will soon be utterly stomped out.

Now we enter the dark world of genocidal and homocidal greed, in which the earth nearly consumes itself, just before the return of the king.

You can hope there is a God and His Messiah will return, or you can take the precaution of placing your head between your legs and kissing your ass goodbye as madmen disintegrate the surface of the earth in the name of short-term profit.
 
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