Give me an example of what they said that I filtered with the Bible... (and this is about God and the Bible after all...)
God's parenting skills.. or lack thereof
- Thread starter Xelios
- Start date
Ok, how about those people who do not choose evil but have evil done to them? Like people who are raped or murdered?
And sticking with your child analogy, if your 3 year old child really likes a hunting knife that he found are you supposed to just stand there until the child stabs himself and say "Whoops! You shouldn't have done that!"?
If you'd like it to be.
I don't think it's a variable at all. If he indeed exists he created this universe, and so can influence anything in it. Presumably he could do anything he wanted, he could destroy evil or cook me a turkey, if he wanted.
Not really. If he asked some people for permission to destroy evil I'm sure some would say no. But I'm not advocating that he need not ask permission. He would simply make it as though evil never existed. Then Adam would never have been tempted by the snake and the choice of evil simply would not exist.
Truthseeker,
Hehe, nevermind dude. You just do what you have to do. Pardon me for the judgement. I just generally can't stand your posts because they are SO frickin ignorant and presumptuous... but who am I to say shit about it eh? I mean... obviously everything I say is pointless to you anyway.. I'm not as patient as raithere, tiassa, cris or the likes... and not quite as gifted regarding my ability to communicate.
You are obviously the expert on you.. and thereby your perspective... I'll keep thinking what I think, you'll keep thinking what you think. That's about it. You're not ready to move on, maybe you're right and everyone but you is going to hell (just what it seems your intently christian perspective implies). I don't have the energy to debate you at the moment, so for now I yeild to strength your argument lacks.
Hehe, nevermind dude. You just do what you have to do. Pardon me for the judgement. I just generally can't stand your posts because they are SO frickin ignorant and presumptuous... but who am I to say shit about it eh? I mean... obviously everything I say is pointless to you anyway.. I'm not as patient as raithere, tiassa, cris or the likes... and not quite as gifted regarding my ability to communicate.
You are obviously the expert on you.. and thereby your perspective... I'll keep thinking what I think, you'll keep thinking what you think. That's about it. You're not ready to move on, maybe you're right and everyone but you is going to hell (just what it seems your intently christian perspective implies). I don't have the energy to debate you at the moment, so for now I yeild to strength your argument lacks.
Xelios,
Is that a choice? Have you chosen the "eek" smilie or... the "eek" smilie...? :bugeye:
That is no choice. God made us because He wanted someone like Him to Love Him back. He was alone, so He created someone. Why do you think they tells us that He will never leave us nor forsake us? But He wanted us to have the choice of choosing Him or not. He wanted someone to Love Him willingly. Without this choice, the "Love" that we would have for Him wouldn't be Love at all. It would be pretty powerless and boring. Do you choose who you love? Yes. But if everyone would love you just because they have no free will, how would you feel?
wesmorris,
So far there was no argument or discussion between you and me in this whole thread... what are you talking about...?
God can do nothing. Even I suffer from unjustice and can be hurt. He can do something about that though. But He cannot prevent someone of doing something bad...
No. He tells you to put the knife down. But that doesn't mean that you will do it. Many Christians spend a good lenght of time hurting themselves. Most of cases is self-pity. But it happens. God tell them not to do it and they do it anyways. Until one ay they stop doing and ask God's help. And He does, as long as you allow Him.
He is limited by our free will. It is His choice.
Do you call that a choice? Please, choose between the "eek" smilie and... the "eek" smilie... here it goes...
Is that a choice? Have you chosen the "eek" smilie or... the "eek" smilie...? :bugeye:
That is no choice. God made us because He wanted someone like Him to Love Him back. He was alone, so He created someone. Why do you think they tells us that He will never leave us nor forsake us? But He wanted us to have the choice of choosing Him or not. He wanted someone to Love Him willingly. Without this choice, the "Love" that we would have for Him wouldn't be Love at all. It would be pretty powerless and boring. Do you choose who you love? Yes. But if everyone would love you just because they have no free will, how would you feel?
wesmorris,
So far there was no argument or discussion between you and me in this whole thread... what are you talking about...?
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
matnay,
He has the power to stop us, but He willingly choose to give us a free will. He limited His own power by choosing to do so. It is His choice. In the same way I can get a UZI and kill 30 people at school, if I want to, He can choose not to have any power over us (unless we willingly ask Him to do so). Why doesn't God guide us? He does. But most of us are way too young to understand.
An atheist is like a 2 or 3 moths old baby, while the average Christian is 3 or 4 years old compared to God.
Gos is not runing this planet...
Genesis 1:26
"26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
... WE are...
Read what I wrote for Xelios...
wesmorris,
That is probably misunderstood concepts you have from the Bible. I will give you an example. God told us to give some that you have to others. Why He did that? Does He want anything from us? Does He need anything from us? No! Our things are His, in the first place! He gave us the whole world! But anyways. When He tells us to give some of what we have He is trying to make us prosper. To be generous is like to plant seeds. You give money to someone, and when you need money, that person will give money to you. You can give Love to someone, and this person will give it back to you. Love is a cycle. It works by cheerfully giving and thankfully receiving. That's what He want for us.
Another one is when He asks us to worship Him. Another misconception is to say that He has vanity. Probably Solomon's mistake when he wrote Ecclesiastes. "Vanity! Vanity!!" ...
that is all from a post in this thread.
how about those who have evil done to them?
the victims?
It is man who attacks his fellow man.
We were put on this Earth to live together,
without doing harm to each other. Gods intervention
is through those who do good.
Our time spent here is quite short in the big picture of things,
so we must learn how to advance our world without harming each other.
This life is a test. Gods intervention will be when you
pass away in your death.
To know of this suffering is to know what it is to be human.
There are good people and there are bad people.
I must go to work to pay for the roof over my head,
and I must be kind to others in order to find my way to
the next phase after death.
The child analogy would refer to someone who does not yet understand what their reason for being is. You must teach a child to understand, so that when he comes of age, he will be able to support himself and know right from wrong.
the victims?
It is man who attacks his fellow man.
We were put on this Earth to live together,
without doing harm to each other. Gods intervention
is through those who do good.
Our time spent here is quite short in the big picture of things,
so we must learn how to advance our world without harming each other.
This life is a test. Gods intervention will be when you
pass away in your death.
To know of this suffering is to know what it is to be human.
There are good people and there are bad people.
I must go to work to pay for the roof over my head,
and I must be kind to others in order to find my way to
the next phase after death.
The child analogy would refer to someone who does not yet understand what their reason for being is. You must teach a child to understand, so that when he comes of age, he will be able to support himself and know right from wrong.
wesmorris,
How is that ignorant and presumptuous?
How is that ignorant and presumptuous?
How is that not ignorant and presumptuous?
stray dog,
Thanks for your add...
Sure he can, he just doesn't want to, and what kind of parent doesn't want to keep their children from harm?
Why does free will have to depend soley on choosing between good or evil? Even if you're only limited to doing good, you still have the free will to do whatever you want, as long as it's good. By your logic, the fact that I can't choose to travel at the speed of light means my free will is non-existant. This is simply not the case.
If all he wanted was someone to talk to why subject us to lucifer and evil?
Basically your arguement is "God has the ability to stop evil, but he doesn't. Instead he tells us not to give into evil and waits to see what choice we make. If we are subjected to evil even if we don't choose it he doesn't feel compelled to help us, even though he could if he wanted to."... I dunno, still sounds like a bit of a bad parent don't you think?
When and where does he do this? personally? in the bible? do you presume the bible is relavent? I say it isn't. You claim your opinion is fact, i claim that no opinion is the only fact. Further, he's never asked ME... so that whole point is ignorant and presumptuous. go ahead, tell me I haven't listened or looked for god's word or some similar crap, you ... argh.
As if you have the slightest conception in such a sense that it is more valid than anothers? your understanding of the will of god so far superior?... that is ignorant and presumptous - sickening.
Aren't you wise? What the fuck are you are you talking about? You presume to criticize that which you worship (the bible)... that is the epitomy of ignorance and presumption.
To whom? You? Okay, but why should anyone else care?... that is ignorant and presumptuous.
I would hold that to be somewhat noble a thought, but why? Why do I simply love everyone bedause I worship love? what if someone kills my daughter? you would deny me remorse?... that is ignorant and presumptuous.
Who the fuck are you to decree what god is? damn.... that is ignorant and presumptuous.
I'm not sure if you were talking to me, but that is a mere drop in the bucket. to ignore that the argument of your debate opponent has more merit than that is to be... presumptous, arrogant and ignorant.. but then again, maybe that was the whole of someone else's argument... in that case... whatever.
You sound like a fucking preacher, (or a lemming) like you are he whom has sole license to interpret what you assume is the will of whatever you say is god. in my opinion... that is very ignorant and presumptuous. in most of these cases, your presumption is that somehow your insight is clearer than all those which attempt to expand your perspective. actually i believe there is much more to your presumption but am too uninterested to delve further at the moment. you'd likely benefit from my analysis, but in my opinion, if you're going to be a pain in my ass that I don't enjoy socially, you should pay me for my valuable time. for instance, the time (which i've volunteered this time) it took to explain this to you, which if history serves you'll completely ignore in terms of value and retort with some kind of ignorant and presumptuous god crap.
I doubt you give the remotest shit that I have a very strong point.
That's not presumption, it's an estimated probability of an event based on historical evidence.
posted by wes
I'll keep thinking what I think, you'll keep thinking what you think. That's about it. You're not ready to move on, maybe you're right and everyone but you is going to hell (just what it seems your intently christian perspective implies). I don't have the energy to debate you at the moment, so for now I yeild to strength your argument lacks.
That's not presumption, it's an estimated probability of an event based on historical evidence. It's a subjective assessment of properties regarding your personality and our relationship. I'm not making claims about fundamental aspects of the universe, just your ignorance and presumption, so you say "I know you are but what am I?" and I say "an ignorant, presumptuous child" like I stated in the first place.
In the immortal words of Trey Parker in BASEketball "Dude, you're a little bitch". Oh, and I know my tone is disrespectfull. I mean it that way. You've got potential but your arrogance is out of control... (please before you call that presumptuous, it is not a matter of fact, it is a matter of my opinion of your arrogance, ignorance and presumption) You probably don't realize this, but I don't hate you or dislike you or anything... I just think that stuff that I said. You might end up being okay, and regardless.. IRL you may be a nice guy or whatever. I'm just saying what I said, not saying you completely suck. I think that sometimes though, then temper it with as much patience as I can muster. I can be a jerk... sometimes it's even kind of fun. Sick bastard I am.
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The Creator does not intervene in the matters between men, because He has already laid the framework for all men to get along in peace. It is up to us not to cause harm to each other.
There is the understanding that person A should not hit person B over the head with a baseball bat. If he does hit him with the bat, than he goes against what is proper. This is the wrong thing to do. Our society has developed a judicial system to deal with such attacks. It is left up to man to deal with such events.
Do not blame the Creator for such attacks, blame the ignorance
of person A for doing so.
The concept of divine intervention is certainly possible,
however, the meaning of life is to learn how to live in peace.
This is a process that we as the human race have not yet fully mastered.
If most men agree on what is right and what is wrong, and this is in tune with what all the religions of the world profess, than peace amongst ourselves is a good start.
If there is in fact a judgement made of your deeds after you die,
it could possibly be based on your conduct while you lived on Earth.
This could be why there is no great voice from the sky telling you what to do every moment of your life.
There is the understanding that person A should not hit person B over the head with a baseball bat. If he does hit him with the bat, than he goes against what is proper. This is the wrong thing to do. Our society has developed a judicial system to deal with such attacks. It is left up to man to deal with such events.
Do not blame the Creator for such attacks, blame the ignorance
of person A for doing so.
The concept of divine intervention is certainly possible,
however, the meaning of life is to learn how to live in peace.
This is a process that we as the human race have not yet fully mastered.
If most men agree on what is right and what is wrong, and this is in tune with what all the religions of the world profess, than peace amongst ourselves is a good start.
If there is in fact a judgement made of your deeds after you die,
it could possibly be based on your conduct while you lived on Earth.
This could be why there is no great voice from the sky telling you what to do every moment of your life.
Xelios,
No He can't. That would be going against their children free will, and He can't do that...
No. By my logic, I can't choose between two things that are not inter-related. You can only choose between opposites. For example: good and evil. If I can't choose evil, than I have no choice but choose good. That's simply not a choice. A choice is when you have at least two opposite things to choose. Life and death, another example. You can choose between life and a banana split, but is that really a choice either...?:bugeye:
Do you get the law of free will? He does feel compelled to help us, but He CAN'T, since WE don't ALLOW Him to do so. In OUR matters, He is pretty much powerless. It is up to US to ask Him "God, can you help me?". As long as we don't make a conscious choice of calling for help, He can't do nothing.
wesmorris,
The key thing here is to see that the Bible is accurate in Its writings, but that doesn't mean that those who speak are saying the Truth. If you analize it in the light of the context, the situation and the historical aspects, you will clearly see It.
-God's Will
-Who God is
I assume nothing...
He does it personally and in the Bible for Christians. He doesn't ask atheists to worship Him. And I'm trying to prove that the Bible is relevent in other threads and you simply ignore it. Why? Are you afraid to argue and lose the argument? If not, then let's talk about it...
The Bible tells us the will of God. I studied It. I understand It (not as well as I wished... but enough to talk about It). And besides, it is you that thinks that your understanding is far superior then mine...
I don't criticize it. If you have read Ecclesiastes, you would know that Solomon wrote it in his bad years. Solomon wasn't always the wise man people think he was. He was pretty bad at first... But then, things changed. The Bible is accurate in Solomon's writings. What is written that Solomon wrote, he really wrote it. However, just because the words are what it was written, it doesn't mean that the subject was right. Solomon was ignorant of God when He wrote that. In the same way, the book of Job was written. Throughout almost the whole book, people tells us what God ISN'T, thinking that they are RIGHT.
The key thing here is to see that the Bible is accurate in Its writings, but that doesn't mean that those who speak are saying the Truth. If you analize it in the light of the context, the situation and the historical aspects, you will clearly see It.
It is written all over the Bible that God is Love.
Worshiping Love you focus on Love instead on the object. That is how you can Love your enemy, and those who hurt you.
Written in the Bible: "God is Love"
Why don't you find it out before you write me...?
Those ideas are not just mine. In the Bible it is written:
-God's Will
-Who God is
I assume nothing...
You said that we should keep thinking what we do... well, that doesn't support much evolution, does it? If we don't grow and just stay as we are, how is that not ignorant? Besides...
Is that not presumptuous...?
Am I arrogant? I'm just trying to have a healthy discussion with whoever wants to take the time, listen to me first, then analize it with whoever's opinion, and then criticizing me. That's what I've done. What have you done beside saying that I'm a lemming or whatever? And how is that not arrogant? :
Then he is not omnipotent, nor omniscient.
What if evil simply didn't exist? Then 'good' would have no opposite. Good would simply come naturally, without the need for a person to choose it.
If a 2 year old is playing with a knife that she finds very interesting do you think she'd allow you to just take it away from her? Just because she doesn't want you to take it away doesn't mean you should just let her have it.
I'm making it clear right here, I am hereby allowing God to take all evil out of my life. God now has full permission from me to eradicate all evil I will ever come into contact with. Now that I am allowing him to do so, will he do it?
T.
As I suspected, debating you is pointless because well, you don't know how to do it. You don't give other opinions serious consideration and you don't understand basic logic or problem solving. Maybe your entire argument dwarfs all others, but if you don't entertain the thoughts of others for a moment (which I'm sure you think is what you are doing), you will always be ignorant and presumptuous. It seems to me that you are clinging to a belief system that could collapse around you at any time and so you just bang it into your head harder... in hopes of avoiding collapse. That is a great way to find insanity, in my opinion, however pointless to you it is... you've already found your way there. I'm putting you on my ignore list for the benefit of the other readers because attempting to debate you is so pointless as to frustrate the hell out of me. I'm sure you'll assert that this is based in the fact that your argument is so strong and I cannot debate it due to my small mind (or poor attitude). It's actually because you are a victim of a meme which only has a cure if the victim searches for it.
All I know is that when two people think each other small minded jackasses, it's best that they avoid each other... especially when it's likely that the chances of establishing a constructive dialog are minimal.
buh bye,
wes.
As I suspected, debating you is pointless because well, you don't know how to do it. You don't give other opinions serious consideration and you don't understand basic logic or problem solving. Maybe your entire argument dwarfs all others, but if you don't entertain the thoughts of others for a moment (which I'm sure you think is what you are doing), you will always be ignorant and presumptuous. It seems to me that you are clinging to a belief system that could collapse around you at any time and so you just bang it into your head harder... in hopes of avoiding collapse. That is a great way to find insanity, in my opinion, however pointless to you it is... you've already found your way there. I'm putting you on my ignore list for the benefit of the other readers because attempting to debate you is so pointless as to frustrate the hell out of me. I'm sure you'll assert that this is based in the fact that your argument is so strong and I cannot debate it due to my small mind (or poor attitude). It's actually because you are a victim of a meme which only has a cure if the victim searches for it.
All I know is that when two people think each other small minded jackasses, it's best that they avoid each other... especially when it's likely that the chances of establishing a constructive dialog are minimal.
buh bye,
wes.
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Xelios,
What is emptyness? The abscence of fullness.
What is darkness? The abscence of light.
What is evil? The absence of good.
Fullness, light and good are substances while emptyness, darkness and evil are the lack of those same substances. Evil dosen't exist. What exist is abscence of good. For the same reason, hell doesn't exist, what exist is abscence of Heaven.
If you are familiar with Taoism, you will understand what I'm talking about.
He is, but He chooses not to be. The power of choice defines the omnipotence while the knwoledge of the choice defines the omniscience. We are dealing with the concepts themselves, bot with things that are indirectly related to the conscepts. That's the difficulty for most people...
How can you define something as "good" if there is no "evil"? You can only define something for its own opposite. What is emptyness without fullness? What is light without darkness? Although only one of the two really exist, you are still able to choose the other. Why only one do really exist?
What is emptyness? The abscence of fullness.
What is darkness? The abscence of light.
What is evil? The absence of good.
Fullness, light and good are substances while emptyness, darkness and evil are the lack of those same substances. Evil dosen't exist. What exist is abscence of good. For the same reason, hell doesn't exist, what exist is abscence of Heaven.
If you are familiar with Taoism, you will understand what I'm talking about.
God cannot go against our free will. We have to learn it by ourselves or listen to Him. If you ask Him to protect you, well, then that's different. If you have a knife and you already asked Him to protect you, He will get it out of your hand wheter you want you or not. But that's because you made your own chocie of being protected, without taking into account your free will. What you actually did, is that you willingly gave part of your free will to Him, so that He can protect you.
How can yo ask Him something if you don't even believe He exists!?!? You can only ask Him something and receive it is you not only believe He exists, but also know it 100% sure. Only in this situation you can receive what you ask. This is what Faith is, the knowledge of God.
wesmorris,
I read all that you wrote and I answered it to you. Sorry, but at least I was listening...
I read all that you wrote and I answered it to you. Sorry, but at least I was listening...
Wait a Minute
1) Why does God require us to believe in Him before he helps us? This seems petty. If He loves us regardless of our belief in Him, why not help?
2) How can one know anything with 100% certainty? I understand if you just mean "be confident," but 100% certainty is impossible in a logical sense.
3) Isn't faith different from knowledge? Most of the time, I've seen faith as meaning belief without certain knowledge.
I don't really care about the rest of this debate, but this struck me as odd. I have a number of questions:
1) Why does God require us to believe in Him before he helps us? This seems petty. If He loves us regardless of our belief in Him, why not help?
2) How can one know anything with 100% certainty? I understand if you just mean "be confident," but 100% certainty is impossible in a logical sense.
3) Isn't faith different from knowledge? Most of the time, I've seen faith as meaning belief without certain knowledge.
LaoTzu,
1) Why does God require us to believe in Him before he helps us?
How can God help you if He doesn't exist (for you)? If you say: "God doesn't exist", then how can He help you? If you don't believe He exists and still ask Him, then you are pretty foolish, aren't you!?!?:bugeye:
2) How can one know anything with 100% certainty?
By being supraconscious or at least aware enough to recognize it. It is called Faith. Faith is the assurance of things which cannot be seeing, the works of principles which are invisible.
3) Isn't faith different from knowledge?
No. Faith is the knowledge of something that you couldn't be able to know with your direct experimentation through your conscious. It is above the little human perspective, rooted in past experiences, definitions and perspective.
To add...
Hebrews 11:1-3
"1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. "
1) Why does God require us to believe in Him before he helps us?
How can God help you if He doesn't exist (for you)? If you say: "God doesn't exist", then how can He help you? If you don't believe He exists and still ask Him, then you are pretty foolish, aren't you!?!?:bugeye:
2) How can one know anything with 100% certainty?
By being supraconscious or at least aware enough to recognize it. It is called Faith. Faith is the assurance of things which cannot be seeing, the works of principles which are invisible.
3) Isn't faith different from knowledge?
No. Faith is the knowledge of something that you couldn't be able to know with your direct experimentation through your conscious. It is above the little human perspective, rooted in past experiences, definitions and perspective.
To add...
Hebrews 11:1-3
"1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. "
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I'm probably going to be sorry for jumping back into this...I think wes is right in saying you're so into deep that you can't see any other options. And yes, I'm sure you'd say the same of anyone disagreeing with you, but anyone who redefines terms to make their argument work is fooling themselves.
Either He exists or not. Whether He exists is not determinant on the believer. The atheist doesn't disbelieve something, he looks and sees no signs of the existance. So the atheist concludes there's no evidence. Period.
Even the best science theories aren't 100%. They are in probability close, but to say you're sure 100% is to delude yourself. And you're 100% in something you yourself admit you cannot see. Faith indeed. 100%.
You use knowledge here in the definition of faith. With faith, you don't know for sure. I know you believe in this "supraconsciousness" thing...but can you back up your idea with something? Or is it untestable, conveniently?
And of course I have to add:
Note the only mention of proof or evidence in in the negative. If there's proof, it's not faith anymore, it's a more logical argument. Faith in religion is used as a good word, but in any other setting having faith in something means that you have nothing to go on, and your belief of it being true rests solely on your hopes. You hope it's true.
Let's not argue semantics...just like statistics, you can take anything and make it true with the right wording.
Either He exists or not. Whether He exists is not determinant on the believer. The atheist doesn't disbelieve something, he looks and sees no signs of the existance. So the atheist concludes there's no evidence. Period.
Even the best science theories aren't 100%. They are in probability close, but to say you're sure 100% is to delude yourself. And you're 100% in something you yourself admit you cannot see. Faith indeed. 100%.
You use knowledge here in the definition of faith. With faith, you don't know for sure. I know you believe in this "supraconsciousness" thing...but can you back up your idea with something? Or is it untestable, conveniently?
And of course I have to add:
Note the only mention of proof or evidence in in the negative. If there's proof, it's not faith anymore, it's a more logical argument. Faith in religion is used as a good word, but in any other setting having faith in something means that you have nothing to go on, and your belief of it being true rests solely on your hopes. You hope it's true.
Let's not argue semantics...just like statistics, you can take anything and make it true with the right wording.