God's love ....a big dissapointment?

Quantum Quack

Quantum Quack

Life's a tease...
Valued Senior Member
So often when I read discussion and debate on the nature of religion and God I get the impression that a certain bitterness and dissapointment exists about the love God has for his creation.

"If God loved us the way the bible suggests then why have we and are suffering so badly?"

"If God loved us the way we think he should then...........?"

"if my wife loved me the way I think she should then she would do.............?"

'If my dog loved me the way he should why doesn't he fetch my slippers for me every night"?

The delusional love that leads to dissapointment is the issue I think.

What say yee?

"If you loved me the way I loved you then........."?
 
First of all, God loves us, but we have to love Him too.

It isn't all that easy to love someone you don't see, but that's just because we treat Him as "someone". At least we can love love itself, and love all the good things that God created. Then we love God too and can maybe start to treat Him as someone, since we have come to know Him.

God gives and God takes, from the bible (and in my own opinion) we should accept both good things and bad things that happen to us, since both come from God. Though learn the lesson that bad things gives us, since that prevents the bad thing to happen again.

When something happens to someone that is wrong then the moral get's higher for people around that person. Which makes the people support the person. It makes both the person and the people around him feel better, and both gains in morality.

It is my belief that in some way suffering has to exist, to keep us from doing things that leads to suffering - but surely not the only reason.

Unjust suffering isn't something that God likes.

Life cleans us, sometimes it is needed that we suffer to feel alive and to appreciate the good things.

Also, from the bible, God describes the time in life like the time when the mother gives birth. While giving birth the mother suffer, but the joy of receiving a child makes the suffering go forgotten.

By asking questions like why God doesn't love you, gives a immediate bad feeling since it's untrue, and the notion is based on you looking for bad alternatives. The love of God is obvious for the one that looks for it.

Related to this is the feeling that God has somehow let you down, that he doesn't care for you, and you feel angry and frustrated. But what is really happening is that you blame things that is really your own fault on God, and you know it! Therefor you feel the frustration, and in this frustration you curse God and say things you never would have otherwize, with God as a picture for the ultimate perfect, that you know shall ruin to show to the WORLD how miserable you are.



By "you" I don't necessarily mean you Quantum Quack, but I've seen this behaviour many times, and I know that someone is bound to recognize it.
 
but I've seen this behaviour many times, and I know that someone is bound to recognize it.
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Yes so have I , hence this thread.

I think possibly it comes down to the reality of expectations.

If for a moment we consider a similar God definition. That God is a self determined entitiy with free will then his love for us can be most puzzling in that his love lacks definition.

It could simply be that we fail to understand the way he loves in that he may be working on a billion year perspective and not a local 80 or 90 year perspective.

WE sometimes fail to understand as you ( Cyperium ) have stated that this life cycle may need to be tough for reasons that God in his wisdom decides to keep to himself.

What I tend to think is that if we knew the whole truth we would find life to be rather fruitless and futile. The suffering is necessary and so is the need to keep the infrastructure that supports this reality also away from understanding as to do so would cripple our sense of reality etc etc.

The engineering that God uses to maintain this reality would seem bizzare and uncomfortable to any one I am sure.

A bit like learning that every thought is "just" a hormonal reaction.
that love is simnply a hormone. It tends to lower our value of what love is a little I think.

It is not for us to prejudge God's decisions on the basis that his decisions are made from a postion of all knowing thus creating a puzzle for us as we are not knowing of what he knows.

However for most, with out deeper understanding God's love, may seem somewhat difficult to appreciate or understand thus leading to dissapointment due to our unrealistic expectations.

I feel that Gods love is truely unconditional and that he can cope quite well with our cynicism as he knows the full picture and in fact he welcomes our cynicism as this shows that he has achieved the maintenance of blissful ignorance for us of the harsh reality he knows of and exists in.
 
WE sometimes fail to understand as you ( Cyperium ) have stated that this life cycle may need to be tough for reasons that God in his wisdom decides to keep to himself.
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I agree FULLY :), especially we fail to understand during the tough time, which may have a reason to it too. Sort of like not understanding that you are dreaming, since the point of the dream would be ruined if you did.

What I tend to think is that if we knew the whole truth we would find life to be rather fruitless and futile. The suffering is necessary and so is the need to keep the infrastructure that supports this reality also away from understanding as to do so would cripple our sense of reality etc etc.
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I understand what you mean, maybe the truth of everything isn't compatible with the truth of society. But in a way I think it is, since in our deepest essence we are all a part of that truth, and society is nothing without us - it doesn't uphold itself. But maybe we got to find the right associations, so that we can follow the same truth in society that we find within, this would maybe create a path that joins the two. Don't know if that's the "right way", but it seems to me that it isn't wrong anyway.

I don't think that the engineering of reality is that bizarre, I think that the engineering we use to describe reality may be weird, though. I rather think that the engineering of reality itself is based upon a wonderful principle, and is everything but uncomfortable.

However, what makes something exist, is probably as easy for us to understand that it is to describe nothing. I guess trusting God is the only way of receiving eternal life. Since He is probably the only one that can do such a thing. Like the heavens is higher than the ground so is His thoughts higher than our thoughts and His ways higher than our ways.

A bit like learning that every thought is "just" a hormonal reaction.
that love is simnply a hormone. It tends to lower our value of what love is a little I think.
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That's true, I don't know if I should agree that love is just a hormone though...love as all feelings are also something mental...something that just can't be physical. Maybe it's something inbetween, mental love meets physical hormone/structure (where mental is the true and real one - otherwize, would we really call it love?)...and is then perceived when they meet (?). Who is experiancing the feelings? The brain? What are you? The brain or the mind? In some way maybe we are the mental meaning of the physical structure. When I think about it this way, then if we change our mental image, then we also change the physical structure to represent that image...but how do we do that without understanding how the physical structure works? I think the brain is organizing itself to represent the physical way of the mental meaning. Does this (if we think deep for a moment) mean that we are tightening the ropes, making us more and more stuck in the brain? Should we do that? Or are we loosing the ropes, since the "soul" get's more and more representation?

Should we, as you said "unpack the zip"? (which I thought was a very good analogy)

It is not for us to prejudge God's decisions on the basis that his decisions are made from a postion of all knowing thus creating a puzzle for us as we are not knowing of what he knows.
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I agree with you that it isn't for us to prejudge His decisions, but as for creating a puzzle...do you mean, as in trying to figure out what He wants from us? Sorry...must be tired (it's 03:14 here in Sweden)...

However for most, with out deeper understanding God's love, may seem somewhat difficult to appreciate or understand thus leading to dissapointment due to our unrealistic expectations.
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I don't fully understand what you mean. Would the failure for us to understand God's love lead us to disappointment because we are expecting too much? Maybe if we don't appreciate it...but I guess that when we actually feel His love then there could be nothing better.

About understanding love. My guess, is that it can't be done. To understand something we got to solve it. From what I've come to realize, every feeling is a very long string of arguments (with a very true one at it's beginning), the arguments in a way justifies the existance of the feeling. But love can't be solved. Love is indeed something in itself. Like a essence of life. Understanding love, as in understanding the reasons why He is loving us, is also a way without end. Love needs no reason. A pleasing thought is that maybe we get to solve the riddle of love in the end. Only to find that it has no end.

I feel that Gods love is truely unconditional and that he can cope quite well with our cynicism as he knows the full picture and in fact he welcomes our cynicism as this shows that he has achieved the maintenance of blissful ignorance for us of the harsh reality he knows of and exists in.
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I see what you mean...I guess that sometimes we can take on a role to understand...what we would do in His position. I suppose He does know about the harsh reality we perceive and that He exists in it as well...but I think He has something new in store for us. As in the bible, when completing the purpouse "Behold, I make everything new" - or something like that...since I know the phrase from the Swedish bible, but the meaning is the same.
 
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Thanks for your comments Cyperium, I find much value in them.
I sort of look at this way,

IMagine you are a master engineer, where you can make a human being from organic manipulations of inanimate material such as carbon and hydrogen etc. say in the process over billions of years the creation is allowed to start evolving on it's own, free of further engineering by the master. The master knows all the gorey, messy details of all he has created, the bacteria the viruses, the oceans and the mountains, he works hard and attempts to make his creation perpetual and self perpetuating so that it will exist for eternity. He knows every enzyme every hormone every souls journey every lesson that need to be learned by every soul on that journey. He knows all the suffering that was and all the suffering to come but his one purpose is to see his creation exist for eternity in a way that he finds satisfying.

In the process of this he uses engineering tools that no one could possibly imagine other than he. He engineers perception, consciousness, he creates a soul and the spirit, he engineers time and gravity to perform as he wishes.

Your heart, what an achievement, to engineer it so in such a way., a brain and nervous system that is built so cleverly that us humans can only guess as to it's functionality.

But the most challenging task of all was to create something that does not need constant vigilance, to create something that functions without his attention, to be automatic in it's outcomes, this is his master achievement.

To allow reality to evolve free of his intervention so that he can put his feet up with a cold beer and watch a little TV....( chuckle)

And to think that all this work probably happen 29 billion years ago when the idea of a universe crossed his imagination and the big bang exploded across his nothingness. That even the human brain was expected to evolve from his now automatic engineering techniques.

We so often underestimate just how brilliant this thing called God is, there is no comparison to the genius of that inspiration called God.

That inspiration called the big bang that is still yet to see it's full conclusion and if God has his way it never will conclude.
 
Love is conditional.

Love, trust, ect....are all very nice cozy terms, but so misused and misunderstood....Love can hurt, love could be hard, love contains hate, for you must love the one worthy of love and hate the one unworthy of love...To love an object is to hate it's opposite. To love peace is to hate war, to love cleanliness is to hate the impure....Love is a very complicated term and is indeed conditional.
 
Hi Quantum Quack.

I've also thought about God's wizdom at the beginning.

I guess, that when He was the only one, in a neverending void, then He must have appreciated endlessly everything that He created. Every single thing would be loaded with total meaning. There may be a end for physical possibilities since everything is composed of a finite number of elements. But I don't think there can be a end to the mental possibilities, take colour for a example, nothing say that there must be a end to colours (just a end for physical representations of colours), if the lightspectrum were larger, then new colours would be created too, how would these colours look like? It's something that we can't even imagine - allthough we can assume that they must exist even so. If we needed a extra sense, then we would have it, even if it were just as different as seeing and hearing. What would that be like?

So in a "mental world" - if such a world exist - with neverending possibilities...everything would be new, we wouldn't be tired (since being tired is only needed because of the body), we wouldn't need any bad feelings - since bad feelings are needed out of necessity (and almost allways because of the need for the physical body to survive). The only thing that I can imagine that could make it a bad place, is if we would be bored, if we would feel meaningless, or if we would loose control and start to think bad thoughts and create bad scenarios for us...it say in the bible that laws creates sin's because we break them, had the law not been created then there would be no sin in breaking it. But the laws are needed and I guess this is a bit of a religious dilemma...and maybe a social dilemma as well. So if we have the option of making a bad scenario, then we would almost certainly make one...so maybe life can be used as a tool to control our will and not jump on every train (since we may want to find out where the train is heading before we get in it). The only thing that I can recommend is thinking more sloowly and controlled...so that you really mean what you think - and also what you say.

I believe that being bored and feeling meaningless can be solved through feeling eachothers awareness. Cause I think that would make it meaningful (that someone else is sharing my experiance), I guess being bored can be solved through that too.

If we could do anything we can imagine, then we would feel meaningless and bored since we allready knew what we would experiance (there would be no 'new') since we ourselves created it. But if we could share that with others and let others share their experiance with us, then it would become meaningful, and I doubt that it would be boring.

That's just a thought of how it may be, cause I want people to think, well that's maybe not so bad after all. Cause I see that many people look at things in a bad perspective...maybe because they want to prepare for the worst possible. But it wouldn't hurt for these people to look at the bright side once in a while - seeing the solution is allways better than seeing the problem.
 
Cyperium said:
God gives and God takes, from the bible (and in my own opinion) we should accept both good things and bad things that happen to us, since both come from God. Though learn the lesson that bad things gives us, since that prevents the bad thing to happen again.
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There is a major conflict here. If "to prevent bad things to happen again" is the goal, then a true god can skip all other craps and reaches it instantly. What's the point to let man suffer through "experience"? "Ah!! One needs to experience the bad in order to cherish the good!!!", you might say. But can you tell the difference between the memory imprinted by a true god and the memory you remembered through your "personal experience"? When you reaches the so called "heaven", all you know is what you remembered. Did you really experience your whole life or god makes you think you did? If you can tell the difference, you just announce god is not perfect. If you can't tell, your god seems like to watch you suffer your whole life than to truely love you.
 
Cyperium said:
First of all, God loves us, but we have to love Him too.
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why?
are you scared he will send you to hell if you dont?
btw why say Him,when gd is invisible?
God gives and God takes, from the bible (and in my own opinion) we should accept both good things and bad things that happen to us, since both come from God. Though learn the lesson that bad things gives us, since that prevents the bad thing to happen again.
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how so?
supose a baby dies or is born cripled/disfigured or sick what is a lesson in that?
and if god controls all,
wouldnt that make him one sadistic sob?
Unjust suffering isn't something that God likes.
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apparently he does,see above!
Life cleans us, sometimes it is needed that we suffer to feel alive and to appreciate the good things.
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tell that to the people tortured to death by some psycho bastard. :rolleyes:

people would apreciate good things even w/out suffering!
But what is really happening is that you blame things that is really your own fault on God, and you know it!
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so all the people dying in Africa from hunger b/c it doesnt rain there is their own fault according to your logic,or maybe he is punishing them for not
being true christians,
remember god controls all according to your beliefs!!
what about those dying in earthquakes,floods acts of god so to speak,
are they all sinners?
why do churches have lightning rods?
afraid of god?

theres no need for belief in gods imo,
your life is what you make it!
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/
 
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Where did this idea originate that god is somehow loving or hating? If there is a god then it must be indifferent or better yet an expression of all we see and experience whether pleasent or miserable. Isn't this is the same god responsible for the harmony and brutality in nature? God did not write a moral code man did. God did not give man anything but nature. So why is man now fighting against this nature in favor for an ideal never intended and naturally impossible? All that is considered good and bad is a construct of the mind, ideas derived from material produced by man. Loving or unloving...God has nothing to do with it, why turn the idea of god into a fickle parent withholding, vindictive and then occasionally benevolent?
 
Lucysnow, you make a valid point I feel and this is the nub of the issue.

The constant arguement offered against the existence of God comes down simply to the fact that if God loved us the way we think he should then why are we seeing and actually experiencing suffering that has no logical or moral premise.

What is the first rational an atheist uses when forming his view? This is the main reason for atheism. And the main reason for constant arguement between atheist and religious views.

Nothing more painful than to realise that we are not loved as we think we should be.
 
Quote: Nothing more painful than to realise that we are not loved as we think we should be.

So true. What most do not want to admit is that life is what it is suffering, insane and occasionally sublime. The whole lot of it. To use the idea of god as an excuse to explain suffering is simply cop out. Life was never designed to offer continuous happiness and pleasure. Bad things happen to good people and when the earthquake comes it swallows our children along with our belongings. Ever read the lyrics to 'Gods Song':

Cain slew Abel Seth knew not why
For if the children of Israel were to multiply
Why must any of the children die?
So he asked the Lord
And the Lord said:

Man means nothing he means less to me
Than the lowliest cactus flower
Or the humblest Yucca tree
He chases round this desert
'Cause he thinks that's where I'll be
That's why I love mankind

I recoil in horror fro the foulness of thee
>From the squalor and the filth and the misery
How we laugh up here in heaven at the prayers you offer me
That's why I love mankind

The Christians and the Jews were having a jamboree
The Buddhists and the Hindus joined on satellite TV
They picked their four greatest priests
And they began to speak
They said, "Lord, a plague is on the world
Lord, no man is free
The temples that we built to you
Have tumbled into the sea
Lord, if you won't take care of us
Won't you please, please let us be?"
And the Lord said
And the Lord said

I burn down your cities-how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we
You all must be crazy to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
You really need me
That's why I love mankind


Sums it up for me.
 
God does not show us his complete love for us because he wants us to search for it and treasure it. Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to the lost pearl and the lost coin. A second reason is that by remaining passive, he does not give bias to the good thereby negating our free will to do good or evil.
 
Flores maybe I do not understand your argument. Are you implying that God only loves those who are worthy of love and 'acts out' against those who are not? I mean if this is true then we must assume that the innocent are never innocent no matter the age, that the poor deserve their squalor, disease a punishment for some sin and the losers of war unworthy of this so called gods grace. If this is the case then we must also assume that God awards villians when they profit from their villany.
 
If God came to earth and said to all and sundry,

" You have problems, you have suffering, I can fix everything, what would you have me do?

I can take away violence so that you can be free of the need to solve your own problems is this what you want?

I can save your children from anothers hand and make your police force obsolete, is this what you want?

I can make the world accident free never a person will suffer a car accident. Is this what you want?

I can take away your need and purpose to exist. Is this what you want?

I can take away your free will and make you into little robots in your perfect world. Is this what you want?

I can give you heaven where you can smile at the clouds with bliss and not do another thing for ever. Is this what you want?

I can change your personality so that it is perfect for you/me, Is this what you want?

I ask you My children, what do you want?

I can do the job for you, but I ask you.....is this what you want?
 
I think by the above post I am attempting to suggest that it is that quality of love that a parent will allow his child to suffer so that he may be better for it. To achieve it on his own with just a little guidance.

A parent can't go to school for the child nor can he fight the childs battles. God I would suggest is a hard nosed bastard who's love for his childrens need for self determination is almost absolute in it's resolve.

Any thing that God does "for us" diminishes us. He knows this and as much as he shares your pain he knows also that to interfere would only destroy the reality of our existance. It's really that simple.


MY thoughts only
 
Parents can't go to school for children is not because they don't want to. It's really because they can't most the time. On the other hand, god has no limit, right? How diminishing can it be if god do it for us? It's not like you can tell at the end that you actually suffered or god makes you think you suffered.
 
So Quantum Quack what is the point of this so called God? What is its purpose? And why does it have gender (you refer to it as a 'he')? If there is mindless just and unjust suffering isn't it because it was designed this way?
 
God is a crazed child in an empty world. His shirt tangled in a branch while he was looking for someone, and now, gone mad with loneliness, he is talking to the mold that grows in the dead wood. (That would be us.)

Why does anyone want to believe this?
 
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