God

T

ThatJerk

Registered Senior Member
I find that when I deny the existence of God I'm told to prove that he doesn't exist.

Figures... apparantly believing in a fairy-tale rots one's brain to the extent that one does not even understand the simple concept of 'burden of proof'.

Consider.

I claim to possess a large, fire-breathing dragon. People naturally want to see my dragon, so I show them. There's only one problem; it's invisible. Naturally they're a little skeptical so they ask me to prove that he exists. I respond with a snappy "Prove he DOESN'T exist!"

Good comeback? Or sloppy and illogical philosophy?

I'll take option B) for $200, Alex. Someone making a claim of ANY kind must be prepared to back it up with irrefutable facts of some type. Without proof it is just that, a CLAIM. Not a truth. It is NOT the responsibility of the skeptics to prove that a claim is NOT true.

The bible does not count as proof, since the only 'facts' it offers are anecdotes, mythology ripped off from various ancient tribes, and accounts written decades after the fact (not even taking into consideration the fact that accounts are guaranteed to become garbled after any length of time). It is a circular arguement, one which works only as long as you run on the hamster wheel of Faith; "God exists because the bible says so, and the bible is right because God says so." *POP!*

Sorry, that was my brain exploding. Excuse the mess.

Conclusion: At best the belief that God as an entity exists is an unfounded CLAIM, due to a singular lack of actual evidence, and at worst it is an outright fabrication. Attempts to use the bible as a reference are self-defeating and retarded.
 
I'd appreciate it if you would not insult God, so that you might not come under His judgement if He does turn out to exist after all.

It would be a lot safer just to hold on to your own beliefs rather than insulting a God you don't know. At the very least, respect my request out of love.

JR
 
Jenyar

Does the bible not state that in Kings I, 8:39 that "...for thou (God), only thou, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;"?

If this is indeed the case, then it doesn't matter a pile of dogshit what we SAY about God, since he knows exactly what we think at all times. The verse goes on...

8:40 "That they may fear thee all the days that they live... etc etc."

This would imply to me that God will take unkindly to blasphemous thinking, let alone 'violence of the tongue' that I and others engage in! Considering the fact that I and millions of other professed and vocal athiests are still breathing, I'd count this as evidence that the bible (and subsequently the Christian god) are fiction, given his track record with heathens in his fanbook.

From the sounds of it, Jenyar, you believe in a God that YOU don't know. Try reading the bible sometime; you might be unpleasantly surprised about what He really is.
 
If this is indeed the case, then it doesn't matter a pile of dogshit what we SAY about God, since he knows exactly what we think at all times. The verse goes on...

Well damn! I shouldnt be thinking about Me, God (God is a hot woman), and Britney spears all in a bed in New Mexico doing freaky stuff.....id still do it though.

Let the religious people have their faith in what they want. Its okay by me but as soon as you force it on me, or the government, to believe in God; then you can go fuck yourself.
 
You left out a part:
1 Kings 8:39 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men)...

2 Kings 19:22
Who is it you have insulted and blasphemed? Against whom have you raised your voice and lifted your eyes in pride? Against the Holy One of Israel!

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

You are alive because you have been forgiven. But I don't think you realise how it affects you.

James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

If you persist long enough, you utterly reject that mercy, you are sinning against the Holy Spirit, because He is the one who has forgiven you.

Mark 3
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

You and everybody, including me, are alive so that we can ask for forgiveness.

Remember what Jesus said to Satan when he tempted Him?
Matt.4:7 - Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'
 
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Originally posted by Jenyar
You left out a part:
1 Kings 8:39 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men)...
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the first part of your reply you state that God is all-forgiving, despite knowing what's in our hearts while you state (from Mark 3:29) that blasphemy is an 'eternal' (READ: unforgivable) sin. So... he's all-forgiving... unless you blaspheme? I don't get it.

2 Kings 19:22
Who is it you have insulted and blasphemed? Against whom have you raised your voice and lifted your eyes in pride? Against the Holy One of Israel!
Click to expand...

Yes, yes I have. I blaspheme against the Hebrew mountain God as easily as against the Greek God of Thunder.

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

You are alive because you have been forgiven. But I don't think you realise how it affects you.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that Christian doctrine had so heavily shifted; I was under the impression that God created man out of clay and placed him on the earth. And I find it interesting how it says in Leviticus 5:15 and 5:17 that I can, in fact, sin without knowing it!

5:15 "If a soul commit a trespass, and SIN THROUGH IGNORANCE (my emphasis), in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall blah blah blah (buy his way out by giving a ram and some amount of money to the priesthood)".

5:17 "And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; THOUGH HIS WIST IT NOT (emphasis mine), yet is he GUILTY, and shall bear his iniquity."

Seems pretty cut and dry, doesn't it? Apparently (as I said before) I'm screwed either way! As I said, try READING the book rather than just using ammunition you get from Chick tracts.

James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

If you persist long enough, you utterly reject that mercy, you are sinning against the Holy Spirit, because He is the one who has forgiven you.
Click to expand...

Ah, so he ISN'T all-forgiving. I find it interesting how you can say, in the same sentence, that I've been 'forgivin' and at the same time be destined for hell-fire if I reject that forgiveness for long enough (which means God has finite patience and a temper). He's perfect and all-loving, and yet... isn't pefect and all-loving. Sounds like abused women talking about their drunken neanderthal husbands.

Mark 3
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

You and everybody, including me, are alive so that we can ask for forgiveness.

Remember what Jesus said to Satan when he tempted Him?
Matt.4:7 - Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'
Click to expand...

So God created us solely to forgive us? Sounds like he doesn't have many friends back home, feeling the need to lord over puny beings like ourselves. Again, with the self-contradiction (much like the bible... coincidence?) regarding forgiveness vs. no forgiveness.

And I find it interesting how God has such a fragile ego that he can't stand to be doubted, or 'put to the test' as Jesus puts it. If he can't stand logical and skeptical inquirey, than his position must be very weak indeed.

Oh, one last thing. Don't tell me the O.T. fire and brimstone stuff is irrelevant, since Jesus himself said SPECIFICALLY that the teachings and prophecies of old are still 100% true and that he was not here to cast them down (I can't find the actual verse... would you mind finding it for me?).
 
Nietzsche needs an enema, Anselm is a gayhead, and YKJ is keleb

Ze jerq ...

Okay, okay ... sorry.

ThatJerk

It seems you're doing fine. Just a couple of pointers:

• It's hard to leap from the Bible to God in general. One might say of the Biblical God, then: At best the belief that (the Biblical) God as an entity exists is an unfounded CLAIM, due to a singular lack of actual evidence, and at worst it is an outright fabrication. Attempts to use the bible as a reference are self-defeating and retarded.

And then you're very nearly correct. The problem is that there do exist conceptions of God that do not hold It to be any entity or reality:
When I began to research this history of the idea and experience of God int he three related monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity and islam, I expected to find that God had simply been a projection of human needs and desires. I thought that "he" would mirror the fears and yearnings of society at each stage of development. My predictions were not entirely unjustified, but I have been extremely surprised by some of my findings, and I wish that I had learned all this thirty years ago when I was starting out in the religious life. It would have saved me a great deal of anxiety to hear--from eminent monotheists in all three faiths--that instead of waiting for God to descend from on high, I should deliberately create a sense of him for myself. Other rabbis, priests, and Sufis would have taken me to task for assuming that God was--in any sense--a reality "out there"; they would have warned me not to expect to experience him as an objective fact that could be discovered byt the ordinary process of rational thought. They would have told me that in an important sense God was a product of the creative imagination, like the poetry and music that I found so inspiring. A few highly respected monotheists would have told me quietly and firmly that God did not really exist--and yet that "he" was the most important reality in the world.
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• Armstrong, Karen. A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. New York: Knopf, 1994. (pp. xix-xx)

One must be careful, for instance, with Anselm. Certainly, God is greater than that which we can imagine, but here is one of the all-time top-ten lunacies of Christian logic:
In fact, it so undoubtedly exists that it cannot be thought of as not existing. For one can think there exists something that cannot be thought of as not existing, and that would be greater than something which can be thought of as not existing. For if that greater than which cannot be thought can be thought of as not existing, then that greater than which cannot be thought is not that greater than which cannot be thought, which does not make sense. Thus that than which nothing can be thought so undoubtedly exists that it cannot even be thought of as not existing.

And you, Lord God, are this being. You exist so undoubtedly, my Lord God, that you cannot even be thought of as not existing. And deservedly, for if some mind could think of something greater than you, that creature would rise above the creator and could pass judgment on the creator, which is absurd. And indeed whatever exists except you alone can be thought of as not existing. You alone of all things most truly exists and thus enjoy existence to the fullest degree of all things, because nothing else exists so undoubtedly, and thus everything else enjoys being in a lesser degree. Why therefore did the fool say in his heart "there is no God," since it is so evident to any rational mind that you above all things exist? Why indeed, except precisely because he is stupid and foolish?
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And we thought the opening of the Johannine narrative was ridiculous ....

But the point being that you're almost directly on the mark in your topic post, ThatJerk. However, once again for accent, stress, and clarification as I see it:

• At best the belief that (the Biblical) God as an entity exists is an unfounded CLAIM, due to a singular lack of actual evidence, and at worst it is an outright fabrication.

You have, essentially, struck after the heart of vulgar Christian theology. There is more existential and transcendental philosophies throughout the Abramic experience that bear other visions of God, as Armstrong has indicated. There are conceptions of God which invest it in objects, in the whole of existence, and in the individual psyche.

Thus I offer you a question: Accepting that the Biblical God as an entity is false, what does it do as a concept in the world?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
I'd appreciate it if you would not insult God, so that you might not come under His judgement if He does turn out to exist after all.

It would be a lot safer just to hold on to your own beliefs rather than insulting a God you don't know. At the very least, respect my request out of love.

JR
Click to expand...

But god really is a big fag! I'd beat him up.
 
Hahha, always amazes me that Anselm still is read.
"In fact, it so undoubtedly exists that it cannot be thought of as not existing. For one can think there exists something that cannot be thought of as not existing, and that would be greater than something which can be thought of as not existing. For if that greater than which cannot be thought can be thought of as not existing, then that greater than which cannot be thought is not that greater than which cannot be thought, which does not make sense. Thus that than which nothing can be thought so undoubtedly exists that it cannot even be thought of as not existing."
Click to expand...
Haha, I still remember sitting in bed reading that for the first time, putting it down and thinking to myself; "What the fuck? If that is logic than I'm a fucking moron!"
 
Jenyar:
I'd appreciate it if you would not insult God, so that you might not come under His judgement if He does turn out to exist after all.
Click to expand...

I'm actually damned no matter what I do, having commited the unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Ghost - Mt.12:31-32). So I'm free to do whatever.

I mean, God is already going to torment me with infinite pain for all eternity. What's he gonna do, torment me with infinity plus two agony for eternity and a year?

Duuuuuh.

[quote[It would be a lot safer just to hold on to your own beliefs rather than insulting a God you don't know. At the very least, respect my request out of love.[/quote]

Love? For God? How can I love something that doesn't exist?

For you? Dude, we don't even care about each other.

Get real!
 
Tiassa

A mind capable of thought. How refreshing.

I haven't read much Anselm, but I am familiar with his arguements (if one possesses a concept of what God is then one by default believes in God, and athiests are only denying the obvious). What strikes me is that Rene Descartes, philosopher and mathematician, actually took Anselm and re-worked him.

That which we clearly and distinctly understand to belong to the true and immutable nature of anything, its essence, or form, can be truely affirmed of that thing; but, after we have with sufficient accuracy investigated that nature of God, we clearly and distinctly understand that to exist belongs to His true and immutable nature; therefore we can with truth affirm of God that He exists.
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Essentially, since we exist and are an immutable part of God's nature, God must exist. *POP!*

Sorry, brain just exploded again.

That said, I still have to take you to task. :D

I'm not referring to 'conceptions of God' that any number of self-professed agnositcs, gnostics, and a large-number of soft-core Christians claim to be in touch with/seeking; I'm referring to the God outlined in the Christian bible.

It's the hip thing to do nowadays, to proclaim one's personal take on religion and God, and to take the soft squidgy bits of Christianity and mix it with some Eastern wisdom to get a bonifide 100% 'unique' take on God that is merciful, kindly and benevolent. I have no interest in these people, they can go hug a tree for all I care.

I AM interested in Christians who profess to believe in a book they either haven't read, period, or have only skimmed. Have you made your burnt offering today? Didn't think so. Do you think God was kidding when he said that we must do this forever?

Conclusion: Today's Christians are NOT CHRISTIANS. They reject pretty well all of the bible's actual teachings, ignoring the bits about killing non-believers and making daily animal sacrifices to the LORD. If you cut out the offensive, barbaric and out-dated portions of the bible you'd be left with a pamphlet saying "Don't kill things. And stuff." with a pretty picture of Jesus playing with puppies and children.

Oh yes, and your question. What does the false concept of God do in the world? This is a question that plumbs the very depths of the human psyche.

Humans crave order and reason. When none is present, they invent it; our brains are wired as such. Try staring at a blank white wall without blinking for a few minutes. What do you see?

Your brain CREATES patterns and images on the blank wall. This is because our brains are little more than super-sophisticated pattern-recognition machines. No pattern or order? The brain creates them and IMPOSES THEM UPON THE WORLD.

Such as it is with larger questions, the very basis of philosophy. What are we? Why are we? How are we? Or, more practically, Why does it become dark at night, or what happens when we die?

These are all questions that ancient humans could not answer. This confounded our very nature, so we imposed a pattern on the blank wall. The concept of the world's creation slowly evolved, a greater entity (or entities) who had great powers, the least of which were creating our world and giving us life.

Voila! Order. Now, we could ascribe all things, good bad and ugly to the whims and machinations of God/the Gods. It was simple and it was the only logical explanation that could be arrived at without the vast scientific knowledge that we've collected.

Conclusion: Humans need the comfort and security of belonging to a system. With none apparant, they create one. So it was with religion, a system that evolved which explains the world and why we're here on it.
 
Xev: no you haven't. Blasphemy (rejection of God) of the Holy Spirit (who is our intercessor with God) has happened when you persist sinning until death (i.e. refused God access, with and against all reason).

I can only care for you in one way over this distance - through prayer (I call you Xev, but I'm sure God knows what your real name is). You can't stop me from praying for you. You can (and probably will) mock be about it, so go ahead. :)

None of you have sinned past forgiveness. So don't use that as an excuse.

The burnt offerings:
Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.

You still have to make offerings - it is still a command. But you can't give more than you have (like the widow who gave her last two coins vs. the rich man who gave handsomely, but in little in relation to what he had)

ThatJerk, what would a real Christian be, in your humble opinion?
John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Christians should offer themselves, and nothing less. But not to death (Christ did that), to life - to God.

Hebrews 10:
7Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll--
I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.

I agree: Christians who do not believe in the whole Bible, and do not read it, will sin out of ignorance.

What else can I clarify?
 
Jenyar:
Xev: no you haven't. Blasphemy (rejection of God) of the Holy Spirit (who is our intercessor with God) has happened when you persist sinning until death (i.e. refused God access, with and against all reason).
Click to expand...

Actually I just did:

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TOTALLY GAY!!!

None of you have sinned past forgiveness. So don't use that as an excuse.
Click to expand...

Dude! Read the freakin' Bible!

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in
danger of eternal damnation.

:rolleyes:
 
2x16...
How long have you been an atheist?

Oh, and you have to have reason to believe the Holy Spirit is real and know Him before you can sin against Him.

"...the Pharisees, yielding to their wonted jealousy, and shutting their eyes to the light of evidence, say: "This man casteth not out devils but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils." (Matthew 12:22-32)

They called Jesus evil, even when they saw Him do good. They blasphemed the spirit by which He exorcised the demon.

So unless you have reason to believe in God, you do not know the Holy Ghost, and is blaspheming out of ignorance.
 
Jenyar:
I'm 18, I'll be 19 November 10th (getting old :) ). I've been an athiest since I was 11.

So unless you have reason to believe in God, you do not know the Holy Ghost, and is blaspheming out of ignorance.
Click to expand...

Good point, but does it matter whether one is blaspheming out of ignorence?
 
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