God vs Satan

[notme2000]

Ok, lately I have been entertaining the idea that God is infact the evil one, and Satan is the savior, but God has kept him subdued through dogma. So let's just compare the two... Feel free to add any you can think of for either side, or make any point you see relavant.

God:

1. Strikes a man down with lightning for donating to church when he does not believe in it (for lying to God)
2. Drowns the entire planet with a great flood
3. Kills the first born child of every egyption without BLOOD on their door
4. Destroys a pure man's life (Jobe)
5. Spreads many plagues and diseases that kill over MILLIONS of people
6. Preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.
7. Personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah)
8. Hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside
9. With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people
10. With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly
11. With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men
12. "As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends"
13. Human sacrifice is condoned
14. Makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses
15. Causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious
16. Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...."
17. Orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)
18. Afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts,"
19. Strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed
20. Is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle
21. Judges your life and decides if you spend eternity in the blissful heaven as a reward for following him, or the fiery depths of hell for forsaking him...
    [/list=1]
    Satan:
    1. Gives man the gift of knowledge
    2. Tries to persue man to leave God (which, after the previous list, seems like the right thing to do)
       [/list=1]
       
       So it seems to me God is a power hungry being that tries to control the human race through fear, ignorance, dogma and the promise of heaven or the threat of hell. Satan tries to get us to open our eyes to God's deceit, and live our lives as our own. So who's the good guy and who's the bad guy!?
       
       I know I'm about to get eaten alive by the christians on this site... Let's try to keep things civil...

 

[Zero]

Satan: hassles jesus for kicks...

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

 

[CounslerCoffee]

Satan: Tortures man for all eternity.

God: Only punishes the wicked.

The Bible: Mistranslated and misunderstood by many.

 

[Cory]

God: Only punishes the wicked.



Destroys a pure man's life (Jobe)

 

[Xelios]

God: Only punishes the wicked.

If this is true, why does he condemn to hell those who do not believe in him but still live a good and honest life? Does that fact that a person chooses not to follow God or Satan, but rather live his life in neutrality (but following an overall 'good' moral route) make that person more wicked than a Christian who lives the same quality of life?

 

[CounslerCoffee]

If this is true, why does he condemn to hell those who do not believe in him but still live a good and honest life? Does that fact that a person chooses not to follow God or Satan, but rather live his life in neutrality (but following an overall 'good' moral route) make that person more wicked than a Christian who lives the same quality of life?

Because you are on Satan's side. By not believing in God you are on Satan's side. Your helping him right now by trying to disprove God.

Job is a story in a book that's 2,000 years old. You atheist always say "Why do you listen to the bible, its 2,000 years old?" Well, Im saying to you "Why do you listen to the bible when its 2,000 years old?" Why contradict yourselves?

 

[Xelios]

No, I am not on Satan's side, I am on neither side. Also, I'm not helping him by trying to disprove God, I am trying to disprove both Satan and God. If God does not exist, neither does Satan. Actually, I shouldn't say I'm trying to disprove them, that's simply not possible, but I am argueing against their existance.

Lets say we are dealing with murder instead of sin. Lets say you have two choices in a murder trial, to let the man go, or to sentance him to death. To let him go will symbolize God, to sentance him to death will symbolize Satan. What if you choose to jail him for 25 years instead? You are not letting him go, and you are not sentancing him to death. In the same way, I am choosing neutrality. I am not choosing Satan, and I am not choosing God.

A truely loving God would not see this as a wicked thing. He supposedly gave us the power of free will, yet he condemns us when we decide to use it. Which brings us back to my original question. If God were loving, why should it matter to him if I live a good life as a Christian or as a neutral? A truely loving God would not condemn anyone to hell just because they aren't Christian, as long as they live a good life as Christians are taught to.

God teaches tolerance, yet he himself is intolerant of anyone who is not a Christian. Am I the only one that finds this hypocritical?

 

[CounslerCoffee]

A truely loving God would not see this as a wicked thing. He supposedly gave us the power of free will, yet he condemns us when we decide to use it. Which brings us back to my original question. If God were loving, why should it matter to him if I live a good life as a Christian or as a neutral?

You have free will. But your on the dark side if you dont believe in God. Im sorry if you cant understand that.

God teaches tolerance, yet he himself is intolerant of anyone who is not a Christian. Am I the only one that finds this hypocritical?

God teaches tolerance to humans. God doesnt live by the same rules that we do.

 

[Xelios]

You have free will. But your on the dark side if you dont believe in God. Im sorry if you cant understand that.

Oh I can understand that, but it is not something born out of an all-loving being. So either God is not all-loving and sinfree as Christians make him out to be, or you are interpreting the Bible the wrong way.

God teaches tolerance to humans. God doesnt live by the same rules that we do.

Right, he's hypocritical. And yet he also condemns hypocracy. He's quite a guy, that's for sure...

 

[CounslerCoffee]

Oh I can understand that, but it is not something born out of an all-loving being. So either God is not all-loving and sinfree as Christians make him out to be, or you are interpreting the Bible the wrong way.

God is all-loving. He would hate to send you to hell, but if your bad then you have got to go. What kind of heaven would it be if it had a rapist in it? Or an atheist? The reason why atheist can't get into heaven is because you'd be a back stabber. You would get there and say "Oh well. I believe now!" It doesnt work that way.

Right, he's hypocritical. And yet he also condemns hypocracy. He's quite a guy, that's for sure...

God is not human. He is not bound to the same rules that we are.

 

[Xelios]

God is all-loving. He would hate to send you to hell, but if your bad then you have got to go. What kind of heaven would it be if it had a rapist in it?

sigh.. I'm not talking about rapists or murderers or pedophiles or prostitutes or anything like that. I'm talking about someone who lives a good honest life, helps others, respects people, shows tolerance for people and so forth and is then barred from heaven because he lived his life in neutrality.

Or an atheist?

Atheists usually believe in evidence. Obviously if you are in heaven you have evidence of God's existance. At that moment the atheist would no longer believe God does not exist. At that moment he would become a theist. What's so bad about having a theist in heaven?

The reason why atheist can't get into heaven is because you'd be a back stabber.

What about agnostics?

You would get there and say "Oh well. I believe now!" It doesnt work that way.

Why not? See, when you are atheist or agnostic, you are not defying God because you want to sin. You simply don't believe God exists. That doesn't mean you're a bad person, it means you just don't believe God exists. If you get to heaven, and you find out God really does exist, you then become a theist and believe. If you lived your life well, why should you not be allowed to enter?

If God truely loved us, and wanted to give us a fair choice, he would have provided evidence of himself that cannot be disupted. That way, those who truely wish to serve Satan will end up where they belong, while those who wish to live good lives will go to heaven.

God is not human. He is not bound to the same rules that we are.

I'm not saying he is. What I am saying is that he is a hypocrit for expecting us to follow rules that he, our creator, does not. He is then no better than a preacher who preaches sex after marriage then goes out after mass and picks up a hooker.

 

[Davearchy]

Well, to answer your question about who goes to hell and what not, we have certain beliefs about that that differ from others.

First of all, when you die, you aren't directly sent to 'heaven' or 'hell', you are sent to spirit paradise or spirit prison, depending upon your knowledge of Christ and God. Those who have a knowledge of Christ and God, and that believe on them, and that lived good lives go to spirit paradise to wait for the final judgement. As for those that do not have a knowledge of Christ and God, those are sent to the spirit prison, and at the spirit prison are those that teach them the Gospel. Now, they are not being forced upon the Gospel by any means, they can choose to reject it at that time. And it is then, if you totally reject Christ and God, you will go to 'hell', or as my religion calls it, Outer Darkness. If they accept it, then they wait to be baptized in Jesus' name. They have to wait to be baptized because the only way they can be baptized is if you do baptism for the dead *which is precisely what we do in the temples*. So essentially, every person will have a chance to recieve God, and Christ and to enter one of the three degrees of glory.

If you already couldn't tell, i'm LDS.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

I'm talking about someone who lives a good honest life, helps others, respects people, shows tolerance for people and so forth and is then barred from heaven because he lived his life in neutrality.

Nope. Even if your the best human being on the planet and dont believe in God your going to hell. Why? Because you dont believe. You also live by the rules that you have created for yourself, not the ones that God gave you. So your a naughty atheist.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

I'm not saying he is. What I am saying is that he is a hypocrit for expecting us to follow rules that he, our creator, does not. He is then no better than a preacher who preaches sex after marriage then goes out after mass and picks up a hooker.

God is not bound by the same rules as us. When I say this I mean that he doesnt have other Gods to deal with. He is the ONE. He also doesnt preach anymore. And God doesnt need sex, its for humans.

 

[notme2000]

Coffee,

Satan: Tortures man for all eternity.

Give me one example...

God: Only punishes the wicked

Then what about when he strikes David's son dead for David's sin?

You have free will. But your on the dark side if you dont believe in God. Im sorry if you cant understand that.

Do you not see the POSSIBILITY that you are in fact on the "dark side" by following a book that praises faith (ie ignorance) is opposed to learning on your own? I mean, if God were the bad guy, would he do anything differently!?

The reason why atheist can't get into heaven is because you'd be a back stabber. You would get there and say "Oh well. I believe now!" It doesnt work that way.

And as far as I'm concerned that's just another point on my list against God...

Nope. Even if your the best human being on the planet and dont believe in God your going to hell. Why? Because you dont believe. You also live by the rules that you have created for yourself, not the ones that God gave you

Damn straight. Think about this then. Even the bible says that Satan is an angel who tried to take over heaven (I think). Well, from what I'm hearing about God, he sounds like a vengefull, bitter, power hungry, ass-hole... If I managed to get in to heaven, and this was the God I met, I'd try to take over too, try to save all the innocent souls who just didn't happen to believe in a God from going to an unjust eternal damnation... And you probably think that makes me evil.

God is not bound by the same rules as us. When I say this I mean that he doesnt have other Gods to deal with

Dictator.

 

[Xelios]

You also live by the rules that you have created for yourself, not the ones that God gave you. So your a naughty atheist

Such as...?

God is not bound by the same rules as us. When I say this I mean that he doesnt have other Gods to deal with. He is the ONE. He also doesnt preach anymore. And God doesnt need sex, its for humans.

The question of whether or not he has other gods to deal with is irrelevant. The relavent thing is he is still hyprocritical toward us. Maybe he doesn't preach anymore, but at one time he did or the Bible would not have been written. At this time he preached hipocracy, which is strictly forbidden in the Bible itself. As for the sex bit, it was an analogy.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

Xelios,

Such as...?

Any. You can create whatever rule you want. If you want to make it legal in your book to rape women they you can. But in Gods rule book you shouldnt.

Notme2000,

Give me one example...

Hmmm. Burning in hell might be one.

Then what about when he strikes David's son dead for David's sin?

That part of the bible is faulty at best, I dont believe everything that I read, neither should you.

Do you not see the POSSIBILITY that you are in fact on the "dark side" by following a book that praises faith (ie ignorance) is opposed to learning on your own

IMHO this is the stupidist thing Ive heard (thats been said about me not learning). I still learn on my own. I still trust science, I dont see how a book can preach ignorance. I dont see how faith is ignorant either. The book tells stories that are told to teach an overall moral (Ie dont kill, dont rape, dont steal).

Damn straight. Think about this then. Even the bible says that Satan is an angel who tried to take over heaven (I think). Well, from what I'm hearing about God, he sounds like a vengefull, bitter, power hungry, ass-hole... If I managed to get in to heaven, and this was the God I met, I'd try to take over too, try to save all the innocent souls who just didn't happen to believe in a God from going to an unjust eternal damnation... And you probably think that makes me evil.

Satan is evil. He was going to kill us all and make hell on earth because he was jealous of us. He was definently not good.

God is not power hungry. God does not rule over Amerika, or afghanistan. He does not launch missles or start wars. Wars are started in his name, he didnt start the wars.

 

[notme2000]

Hmmm. Burning in hell might be one.

God created hell and put Satan in it... And he's the one who put ALL it's inhabitants there.

That part of the bible is faulty at best, I dont believe everything that I read, neither should you

I don't believe any of it... But the same should apply to you, you are trusting Satan is bad from a book inspired by God, his professed enemy...

IMHO this is the stupidist thing Ive heard (thats been said about me not learning). I still learn on my own. I still trust science, I dont see how a book can preach ignorance. I dont see how faith is ignorant either. The book tells stories that are told to teach an overall moral (Ie dont kill, dont rape, dont steal).

Why is it so stupid? I'm not insulting you. Please do me the same courtesy. All I'm stating is a possibility that maybe Satan is calling himself God, God (dubbed Satan by the real Satan) is trying to tell you to not listen to all this Dogma and figure it out on your own. It's just a possibility... And concidering all the bad points I listed out for "God" and the good points I listed for "Satan" it shouldn't be that hard to see as a POSSIBILITY.

Satan is evil. He was going to kill us all and make hell on earth because he was jealous of us. He was definently not good.

How do you know? The bible? In your words "Don't believe everything you read"

God is not power hungry. God does not rule over Amerika, or afghanistan. He does not launch missles or start wars. Wars are started in his name, he didnt start the wars.

I never said anything about the current war or anything. But God must be power hungry, otherwise he'd just let us be.

And I notice there was no reply to my dictator remark. I'm not stating this as the truth. Simply an interesting thought... You understand my premise right? What if Satan DID take over heaven, and has been passing himself of as God ever since. This explains all the atrocities atrributed to religion... And I still don't see why satan is so bad for offering a bite from the tree of knowledge... What is so wrong with knowledge? Learning for yourself? God offerend blissful ignorance, Satan offered the truth...

(PS, I may be attacking your beliefs, but I am not attacking you for believing them)

 

[Xev]

I just want to say, I have five bucks on Satan.

 

[Xelios]

Any. You can create whatever rule you want. If you want to make it legal in your book to rape women they you can. But in Gods rule book you shouldnt.

Uh huh, and what if I decided to live by the Commandments because I thought they are good moral rules regardless of whether or not God exists? God's wish of undying, completely loyal servantship toward him may have been practical 2000 years ago, when ignorance was the word of the day. However in this age the literacy rate of most countries is in the very high 90's, science has progressed to the point where we can leave our planet, the workings of nature are beginning to be understood, and the initial event that created the universe has been all but seen with our own eyes. If God thinks he can still demand blind loyalty to him in such a time then he' s not as smart as I once thought.