God vs free will.

[thinkthinkingthought]

If God were to have a plan for every concievable or inconcievable event would we lose free will. If every event is accounted for would we just be following a particular path using free will rather than following that path with choices made for us. And if there is no plan doesn't that take away any meaning or purpose that our existence might have or is existence enough for meaning and/or purpose.

 

[wegs]

If God were to have a plan for every concievable or inconcievable event would we lose free will. If every event is accounted for would we just be following a particular path using free will rather than following that path with choices made for us. And if there is no plan doesn't that take away any meaning or purpose that our existence might have or is existence enough for meaning and/or purpose.

''Free will'' is really nothing more than the ability to make our own choices. I believe in God, but I also believe that my life is the sum total of the choices I've made, and have yet to make. Some circumstances can be 'handed to us,' thus the adage...'you have to live out the hand you've been dealt.' But, it is still up to me, how I respond to those circumstances. If someone dies, or betrays me, etc...I have a choice to respond positively or negatively. I make the choice. Since God is all-knowing, I guess one could say...he knew I'd make that choice.

 

[thinkthinkingthought]

''Free will'' is really nothing more than the ability to make our own choices. I believe in God, but I also believe that my life is the sum total of the choices I've made, and have yet to make. Some circumstances can be 'handed to us,' thus the adage...'you have to live out the hand you've been dealt.' But, it is still up to me, how I respond to those circumstances. If someone dies, or betrays me, etc...I have a choice to respond positively or negatively. I make the choice. Since God is all-knowing, I guess one could say...he knew I'd make that choice.

But you're only able to make choices based on the options presented to you. Your choices are primarily the result of external stimuli. So your freedom is restricted to these choices. Even before you were capable of making choices your life was being laid out before you. Even before you were conceived. How can you have free ilwill with a limited number of choices.
As to knowing your choices. If he laid that choice before you did you make it yourself or were the options presented with the intent that you would choose one and therefore its not so much will or freedom but an experience that you're just going along with

 

[Robittybob1]

But you're only able to make choices based on the options presented to you. Your choices are primarily the result of external stimuli. So your freedom is restricted to these choices. Even before you were capable of making choices your life was being laid out before you. Even before you were conceived. How can you have free ilwill with a limited number of choices.
As to knowing your choices. If he laid that choice before you did you make it yourself or were the options presented with the intent that you would choose one and therefore its not so much will or freedom but an experience that you're just going along with

When you combine freewill with precognition it gets even more difficult to understand, even though I did get some degree of understanding of it from the following events.

It occurred that two people had a dream with precognition that a certain 3rd person was going to be involved in an accident. This was concerning to both parties, for no one wanted those sort of things to happen to the 3rd person.
So as you both have said the future is mapped out based on circumstances and reasons for making those choices. It was these aspects which are visible in the spirit realm. Maybe it's like guardian angels warning us of the future. But the future has not yet happened, you can alter it by making choices, but those choices have to mean a change for the better, a change of life, a spiritual change.
Well both of us told the 3rd person involved of our concern, and sometime a little later as she left work a speeding car nearly sideswiped her.
So had she made the required changes to alter the future mapped out for her? (Leading to a near miss rather than full on impact?)
So from then on, I don't see everything locked into place, but nearly locked in, but by choices (life changing choices) you can still alter your precognitized future.

 

[thinkthinkingthought]

When you combine freewill with precognition it gets even more difficult to understand, even though I did get some degree of understanding of it from the following events.

It occurred that two people had a dream with precognition that a certain 3rd person was going to be involved in an accident. This was concerning to both parties, for no one wanted those sort of things to happen to the 3rd person.
So as you both have said the future is mapped out based on circumstances and reasons for making those choices. It was these aspects which are visible in the spirit realm. Maybe it's like guardian angels warning us of the future. But the future has not yet happened, you can alter it by making choices, but those choices have to mean a change for the better, a change of life, a spiritual change.
Well both of us told the 3rd person involved of our concern, and sometime a little later as she left work a speeding car nearly sideswiped her.
So had she made the required changes to alter the future mapped out for her? (Leading to a near miss rather than full on impact?)
So from then on, I don't see everything locked into place, but nearly locked in, but by choices (life changing choices) you can still alter your precognitized future.

If it were the future that you would see you couldn't alter it. its the future.it can't be something else if its already the future. which makes the precognition a coincidence not a purposeful event. Meaningful to be sure. Not purposeful.

 

[Robittybob1]

If it were the future that you would see you couldn't alter it. its the future.it can't be something else if its already the future. which makes the precognition a coincidence not a purposeful event. Meaningful to be sure. Not purposeful.

I'm not so sure about that. If the future has elements in it that I don't like I can work against it and prevent it happening. Even though I believe the inevitable future is already known it is not locked in stone for it hasn't happened yet. This is discussed in the book of Jonah, where Jonah prophesied the destruction of the city but the city people repented and the destruction never happened and it pissed the prophet off, for he wanted to go down in history as a successful prophet, and not the failure that he appeared to be.

In the real life example I gave (above) if the two of us hadn't expressed concern and did nothing about it maybe the precognition would have been the future, but we are glad now it never happened that way.

 

[geeser]

If we are made in gods image then we can not have free will, simply because the bible god cannot have free will and as such would not know what free will was. It could create a facsimile of what appears to be free will, but it is not free will.

The reason being an omniscient being does not have free will.
as an all-knowing being, it will know it's future actions, what choices it will make, it cannot change them else it's knowledge would be wrong, so it wouldn't be all-knowing.
An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions, all it's actions are predetermined.

As soon as an omniscient being comes into existence it already knows every action it will make. In effect such a being is moot as it can take no further action it can only observe.
It would also be foolish for such a being to observe as it knows what is coming.

And also a benevolent being has no free will, this being always makes the best choices because it is perfectly benevolent. It must act, at all times, to effectuate the best possible situation. It cannot do something that is less than perfectly good, it cannot do second best good, so it has no free will.

As we are made in gods image and god has no free will this means that all our actions are predetermined too.

Now if god isn't those things, then why call it god.

 

[wegs]

No, not so. God can be all knowing and as humans, we have free will to make choices.
We are not drones with no ability to make decisions. No one here knows God, we are merely speculating as to what he could be.
But, we do know that we have the ability to make our own choices.
God doesn't interrupt our free will.

 

[wegs]

But you're only able to make choices based on the options presented to you. Your choices are primarily the result of external stimuli. So your freedom is restricted to these choices. Even before you were capable of making choices your life was being laid out before you. Even before you were conceived. How can you have free ilwill with a limited number of choices.
As to knowing your choices. If he laid that choice before you did you make it yourself or were the options presented with the intent that you would choose one and therefore its not so much will or freedom but an experience that you're just going along with

That is a straw man, somewhat. Unless I create all of my circumstances, I have no free will? Lol of course the universe is set in motion...everyone has a set of circumstances, families, genetics, etc...presented to him/her but I will have the free will to choose how to respond to those circumstances. This is why two people growing up in poverty, one may choose crime while the other won't. That is free will.

 

[Robittybob1]

If we are made in gods image then we can not have free will, simply because the bible god cannot have free will and as such would not know what free will was. It could create a facsimile of what appears to be free will, but it is not free will.

The reason being an omniscient being does not have free will.
as an all-knowing being, it will know it's future actions, what choices it will make, it cannot change them else it's knowledge would be wrong, so it wouldn't be all-knowing.
An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions, all it's actions are predetermined.

As soon as an omniscient being comes into existence it already knows every action it will make. In effect such a being is moot as it can take no further action it can only observe.
It would also be foolish for such a being to observe as it knows what is coming.

And also a benevolent being has no free will, this being always makes the best choices because it is perfectly benevolent. It must act, at all times, to effectuate the best possible situation. It cannot do something that is less than perfectly good, it cannot do second best good, so it has no free will.

As we are made in gods image and god has no free will this means that all our actions are predetermined too.

Now if god isn't those things, then why call it god.

We were made in God's image in that we were able to determine good and evil wasn't it. No longer just instinctive animals but from then on we evolved into beings that are capable of planning to do good or evil. So that is the free will; we can decide to do something good or something evil. And it is the analysis of our intentions that we are judged upon in the end.
That is deep stuff, and on topics that are are new to me so that is about as far as I will go at the moment.

 

[wellwisher]

Free will is not the same as will. Humans are born with will, but have to consciously work to develop free will. Free will requires knowing about your unconscious self. Free will is the ability to chose between alternatives without any emotional/psychological cost.

If there was an apple and orange on the table but I prefer the apple and hate oranges, I have will to choose the orange; does not come natural to me, but this is not free will, because I have to overcome my distaste, which has a cost; not free. I would need to constantly chose oranges until I get used to them and begin to like them, equally. Now I have free will in this one case. There is no emotional cost not fighting myself and my propensities.

Will power can oppose determinism, but often there is a cost. We may like classical music, naturally. We can willfully choose to listen to hip hop, but the price/cost is irritation. Free will breaks away from inner determinism, by making our reaction to hip hop the same as classical. There is no longer any unconscious filter leading your mind.

We have instincts. We can will to go on a diet and fight hunger, but the price is discomfort. Free will does the same thing and is more like the seasoned dieter who can cut back and not get much of a reaction. It takes practice.

 

[geeser]

No, not so. God can be all knowing and as humans, we have free will to make choices.
We are not drones with no ability to make decisions. No one here knows God, we are merely speculating as to what he could be.

The two highlighted statements are contradictory.

But, we do know that we have the ability to make our own choices.

How elaborate.

God doesn't interrupt our free will.

Again with the contradiction.

Would you like to try again!

 

[geeser]

We were made in God's image in that we were able to determine good and evil wasn't it. No longer just instinctive animals but from then on we evolved into beings that are capable of planning to do good or evil.

Did we and you know this how!

So that is the free will;

Is there, if there is it never came for the biblical god,

we can decide to do something good or something evil. And it is the analysis of our intentions that we are judged upon in the end.
That is deep stuff, and on topics that are are new to me so that is about as far as I will go at the moment.

I would, because you will be tripping over yourself pretty soon.

 

[wegs]

The two highlighted statements are contradictory.
How elaborate.
Again with the contradiction.

Would you like to try again!

Do you have the ability to make your own choices? Yep.
Does God interfere? Nope.

No contradiction.

 

[geeser]

Do you have the ability to make your own choices? Yep.
Does God interfere? Nope.

No contradiction.

Irrelevant!
That is not what you said is it.
What you said was this "God can be all knowing and as humans," and this "No one here knows God, we are merely speculating as to what he could be." Which is a contradiction. You cant both know what god is and not know. Make up your mind!

 

[wegs]

Irrelevant!
That is not what you said is it.
What you said was this "God can be all knowing and as humans," and this "No one here knows God, we are merely speculating as to what he could be." Which is a contradiction. You cant both know what god is and not know. Make up your mind!

I know what I said, and there's no contradiction.
God 'can' be all knowing...and humans have free will.

The two concepts can coexist. For some reason, you don’t think they can…and therefore, you think I’m contradicting myself.
Are you basically suggesting that God can’t possibly be all knowing in order for humankind to have free will?

 

[wegs]

Ok, I see where you think I'm contradicting.
That on the one hand I say God can be "xyz," and then I say...we are speculating.
Perhaps, it would be best if I say..."As to what I believe in and of God..." that might be a more accurate statement.

My belief is just that, it's not proof of anything. That should go without saying.
At the of the day, you and I won't see eye to eye on any of this, because fundamentally, we have opposing views.

 

[gmilam]

Did Judas have free will? God's plan (alledgedly prophesied generations beforehand) required Judas' act of "betrayal". So before Judas's father was even a gleam in his granddaddy's eye, it was already "known" that Judas would be the fall guy.

At least, if you believe those tales to be factual. If it's just a fictional allegory, then it's a moot point.

 

[geeser]

My mistake

 

[Robittybob1]

Did Judas have free will? God's plan (alledgedly prophesied generations beforehand) required Judas' act of "betrayal". So before Judas's father was even a gleam in his granddaddy's eye, it was already "known" that Judas would be the fall guy.

At least, if you believe those tales to be factual. If it's just a fictional allegory, then it's a moot point.

Jesus was about as popular to the political/religious authorities in Israel those days as Edward Snowden is in the USA today. It was only a matter of time before Jesus was turned in by one of his followers.
Whether it was Judus' freewill to do this, I don't doubt a bit. He made the choice to do the things that the authorities requested, he was actually being the model citizen doing what he was asked to do.

Would you turn in Edward Snowden in? Are you the modern day Judas? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden