God Must Exist;

[Dywyddyr]

Dyw's comment is not a reply to Jan's.
The people Dyw is referring to are the Pirahas, supposedly having no concept of God.

I agree that it wasn't a reply to Jan's question. However Jan's question wasn't a relevant question to my prior statement. I pulled Jan BACK to my original meaning.

If I am understanding Jan as he means it, then he is saying that as long as anyone is making any statement about God (ie. any statement that has the word "God" in it), then this person has some perception of God, some relationship with God.

No. Simply because someone uses a word in a discussion and I reply doesn't mean that I have an actual perception of the thing under discussion. (Note the number of times I have asked for definitions &c. in such discussions.) Like Jan's attempts at blue monkeys.

The fact is that when you think and talk about this (and you do!), you prove that you have some notion of p (which means that you are not a Piraha-before-the-advent-of-white-man-kind-of-atheist).

I didn't claim I was. Please read the thread and see where the Piraha came up.

Actually, it's the atheists who do that.

It's all Jan's managed so far.

 

[DeeCee]

"author unknown"

If Nietzsche didn't say it then he should have done.

Dee Cee

 

[leopold]

That's the whole problem, we aspire to become dictators that demand love from our subjects while dominating and controlling them.

not sure if that is what the author meant.
if god actually exists would you say he/ she/ it/ they is a dictator?
i envision a dictator as forcing you into something against your will.

 

[sifreak21]

there is no proof.. you shouldnt have to have faith in something for it to exist.. things that actually exist. are seen and known by everyone reguardless of what they think or beliefs are

 

[leopold]

there is no proof

bingo.

you shouldnt have to have faith in something for it to exist

for some reason this seems to be what god is all about. but why faith? why is that important?

 

[John99]

That's the whole problem, we aspire to become dictators that demand love from our subjects while dominating and controlling them.

I think it is only a small percentage of any population who suffer from that kind of mental illness. Unfortunately those are also the most aggressive.

Note: i said any population but remeber these effect small populations\groups and its not always the cream that rises to the top. You have sociopaths and even psychotics to contend with.

 

[drumbeat]

Just because I believe something doesn't exist doesn't mean he exists.

I don't believe the Christian God exists.
In my head is an imagination, an idea of what the Christian God is. This might not be the same as everyone else's idea or image, but the image I have of him does not exist in my reality.

 

[John99]

Just because I believe something doesn't exist doesn't mean he exists.

I don't believe the Christian God exists.
In my head is an imagination, an idea of what the Christian God is. This might not be the same as everyone else's idea or image, but the image I have of him does not exist in my reality.

Thats nice but why keep repeating it?

 

[John99]

bingo.

for some reason this seems to be what god is all about. but why faith? why is that important?

What is even stranger is that i am not aware of geniuses that wanted to be worshipped. Mostly the opposite though...

 

[spidergoat]

not sure if that is what the author meant.
if god actually exists would you say he/ she/ it/ they is a dictator?
i envision a dictator as forcing you into something against your will.

Yes, on pain of eternal torture. If God exists, it's a psychopath.

 

[Yazata]

Sciforums moves awfully fast. This whole thread has appeared and grown to several pages since I was here yesterday. For the record, I'm going to post my reactions to Jan's idea, even if most of my points have already been made by others before me.

1. To believe God does not exist, or, that there is not enough evidence for his existence, still forms a relationship, at least in the mind, because God has to be percieved to not to exist.

Well, the word 'god' obviously exists in the English language. That word is associated with a whole variety of often-inconsistent traditional stories, meanings and supposed attributes, typically drawn from one of the major theistic religious traditions. (Here in the US that's usually Christianity.)

When I say that I don't believe that God exists, I'm not typically using the word 'God' in any precise sense to refer to the named deity(ies) of any single tradition. I'm kind of rhetorically waving my arm at all of that kind of stuff.

So that's a problem for your theory right there, since the word 'God' doesn't seem to have a clear and consistent reference to any single object, whether existent or imaginary. In other words, it isn't entirely clear what we are talking about (and in your theory, forming a relationship with) when we use the word 'God'.

2. That perception differs ONLY, from the perception of God does exist, in
the negative sense, as opposed to a positive one.

I'm going to disagree pretty strongly with that one. Having a concept of the meaning of some word, even if the concept is clear and precise, isn't the same thing as perceiving the referrant of the word. Even in Christian theology, thinking of the word 'God' isn't the same thing as having a revelatory vision of God.

3. The only way God can NOT exist is to illiminate all notions of God, Supreme Being, Leader, boss, from the mind.
By doing so one relinquishes the relationship.

That might be true, if God is only taken to be a human concept. The fictional character Sherlock Holmes is a real concept too, one that might be more precise and detailed than the concept of God in fact. Invisible pink unicorns is a concept that I just thought of and therefore presumably exists (as a concept).

But theists are typically making much stronger ontological claims than that about their God. Atheists aren't denying that the concept of 'God' exists. They use the word 'God' themselves and presumably they assume that it possesses some meaning, however vague. What atheists are denying, and theists are affirming, is that the word 'God' actually refers to something above and beyond the concept.

 

[John99]

Atheists aren't denying that the concept of 'God' exists. They use the word 'God' themselves and presumably they assume that it possesses some meaning, however vague.

You are describing Agnostics and not Atheists though.

 

[John99]

Yes, on pain of eternal torture. If God exists, it's a psychopath.

Well look at Frankenstein. Frankenstein was not a robot, if he was a robot his problems would not have existed. Could Frankenstein have been emotionally detached? Just doesnt seem possible yet Dr. Frankenstein built him to the best of his ability.

 

[spidergoat]

OK fine we have free will, but the governing model of the divine is that of a totalitarian, psychopathic bully.

 

[John99]

You know...organic life is mysterious, to us. We've only had limited success figuring out humans, i mean primarily the old grey marble.

 

[spidergoat]

But it won't be religion that does it, it will be science.

 

[John99]

We should have spent all that time trying to figure ourselves out....first.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan

A thought occurs....

Why god?
It's been pointed out that we could play this game with anything, unicorns, pink lettuce, blue monkeys (accidentally created by me if your musings on the objective content of thought are to be believed) ect ect

So why choose god as you example?
You worried that "Stable version of Windows must exist" wouldn't attract as much interest?
Or have you got another agenda?

DeeCee

I find the subject matter interesting, and provocative.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

drumbeat,

Just because I believe something doesn't exist doesn't mean he exists.

It must exist on some level.

I don't believe the Christian God exists.
In my head is an imagination, an idea of what the Christian God is. This might not be the same as everyone else's idea or image, but the image I have of him does not exist in my reality.

And what is the source of those imaginings?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Bells,

You have never seen a tree fall down?

Not first hand.

And yes it does matter. Since you have never heard the noise a tree makes as it falls down in a forest, you really should never use it in your debate until you do.

How do you know that a tree makes a sound when it falls, and you're not there to witness it?

There is a difference between imagining an event and remembering an event - ie tree falling down in a forest.

But you have no memory of a tree falling down while being absent.

Now you see, if I was some backward savage living in the middle of nowhere and had never had contact with anyone in the outside world, God would not be present within me because I would have had no knowledge of him/her/it. And if he/she/it was, then you may have a point. But that was not the case.

You would most probably regard the awsomeness of nature as God.
Or at least something superior to yourself, to whom you depend upon.

Just as you cannot imagine knowing what sound a tree makes as it comes down in a forest because you have never experienced it before. For all we know, you could be imagining and believing that they sound like fairy bells when they come down.. which would be incorrect.

That would depend on my overall experience of life.
If a newly planted tree was to fall over, would it make the same sound?
No.

jan.