God Is Self-contradictory. Hence, God Doesn’t Exist.

[AAF]

Diogenes' Dog: "...God is fully present at every instant of time, AND is also outside time. That is being omnipresent"!

That is easier said than done and demonstrated,Diogenes' Dog.
That is because the only thing that can be said with some justification 'is outside time' is the point of absolute nothingness.

Diogenes' Dog: "...unless time is quantised (e.g. like energy). I'm not sure what the latest thinking on quantised time is, but it was a popular idea at one time".

Whether that supposition of 'Time Quantum' is true or false, it has no bearing on the case under discussion, i.e. nothing exists outside time. Even language itself becomes an utter nonsense in the absence of time. The three most generalized laws of logic and human thinking (Identity, Contradiction, & Excluded Middle) would not work outside time either.

Diogenes' Dog: "...According to Einstein (Special Relativity), if you were a photon of light, the time between the start and end of the universe to you would be instantaneous. An almost infinite time (for us) is "compressed" into an instant. Time does not pass for that photon. Does that help"?

As I understand it, according to Einstein's theory, the rate of time flow gets slower and slower as the speed of an object approaches speed of light, and therefore time in the reference frame of a photon becomes an eternity.
And so time rules in this particular case in a very big way.

Diogenes' Dog: "...The Gnostics refer to God as "The All". God is the origin of time and space and all else. Time is not an attribute of God. Everything in existence, including time is like a thought in the mind of God".


They have the right to say or believe anything. But proving what they said or believed in logically and convincingly is another matter. I don't see how those Gnostics can prove their case.

 

[(Q)]

These are your words, Q,

Again, I'll repeat, I accepted Ddogs version, if your not happy with it, you can discuss with him and reach a consensus and then get back to me. If you have another version you'd prefer, we can use that, if you like.

Which sun does God use to mark sunset and sunrise? Do you know what a day is to God? No. The term is obviously metaphorical.

Then, I'll have to accept everything in the bible as mere metaphors, ok?

Also, just because God is timeless, that doesn't mean God's creations are timeless - they function according to physical laws, and God doesn't have to wait to pass the time while the stars are accumulating from hot gases and exploding to make planets and all that, yawning all the way.

That's apparently how the story goes, doesn't it? Have you an interpretation of Genesis that makes sense, timewise?

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Diogenes' Dog: "...God is fully present at every instant of time, AND is also outside time. That is being omnipresent"!

That is easier said than done and demonstrated,Diogenes' Dog.
That is because the only thing that can be said with some justification 'is outside time' is the point of absolute nothingness.

Diogenes' Dog: "...unless time is quantised (e.g. like energy). I'm not sure what the latest thinking on quantised time is, but it was a popular idea at one time".

Whether that supposition of 'Time Quantum' is true or false, it has no bearing on the case under discussion, i.e. nothing exists outside time. Even language itself becomes an utter nonsense in the absence of time. The three most generalized laws of logic and human thinking (Identity, Contradiction, & Excluded Middle) would not work outside time either.

What justification do you have for your statement that "nothing exists outside time" AAF?

 

[AAF]

What justification do you have for your statement that "nothing exists outside time" AAF?

This is one important part of the justification, Diogenes' Dog:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=22326&page=1&pp=20

 

[AAF]

Responding to Diogenes' Dog's comment that "...According to Einstein (Special Relativity), if you were a photon of light, the time between the start and end of the universe to you would be instantaneous. An almost infinite time (for us) is "compressed" into an instant. Time does not pass for that photon. Does that help"?

I wrote:
As I understand it, according to Einstein's theory, the rate of time flow gets slower and slower as the speed of an object approaches speed of light, and therefore time in the reference frame of a photon becomes an eternity.
And so time rules in this particular case in a very big way.

:bugeye:

The statement [therefore time in the reference frame of a photon becomes an eternity] is not quite accurate. It's true only on a strict Einsteinian ontological interpretation of time dilation.

But if one uses strictly the other one (the metrical interpretation), then everything in the universe as seen from the photon's frame of reference will appear to come to complete stand-still and time become an eternity, except, of course, events inside the photon's frame of reference where the rate of time flow is normal and co-moving clocks (weightless clocks!) continue to measure the regular time as usual.

 

[AAF]

Responding to Diogenes' Dog's comment that "...According to Einstein (Special Relativity), if you were a photon of light, the time between the start and end of the universe to you would be instantaneous. An almost infinite time (for us) is "compressed" into an instant. Time does not pass for that photon. Does that help"?

I wrote:
As I understand it, according to Einstein's theory, the rate of time flow gets slower and slower as the speed of an object approaches speed of light, and therefore time in the reference frame of a photon becomes an eternity.
And so time rules in this particular case in a very big way.

The statement [therefore time in the reference frame of a photon becomes an eternity] is not quite accurate. It's true only on a strict Einsteinian ontological interpretation of time dilation.

But if one uses strictly the other one (the metrical interpretation), then everything in the universe as seen from the photon's frame of reference will appear to come to complete stand-still and time become an eternity, except, of course, events inside the photon's frame of reference where the rate of time flow is normal and co-moving clocks (weightless clocks!) continue to measure the regular time as usual.

Oh not again!
What a confusing theory!

The above argument is true only, if the photon has infinitely small rest mass.
Otherwise the results are undefined, since the equations of Einstein's theory break down when the speed of a moving reference frame is exactly equal to speed of light, i.e. (v = c).

 

[AAF]

dattaswami: "God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God...".

If God is unimaginable, then He is logically untenable, and therefore, He does not exist.

The same is true for all other unimaginable things, regadless of the number and the authority of the people who believe in them.

The rule of thumb is 'IF YOU CAN'T IMAGIME THEM, THEN YOU ARE MAKING THEM UP AND THEY ARE NOT REAL'.

 

[AAF]

dattaswami: "...Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires...".



Your theory of 'God, Desire, & Imagination' is very close to Bishop Berkeley's 'Theological Idealism':
http://hometown.aol.com/recogswell/

And B. Spinoza's Hypothesis of 'the natural world & God are one':
http://members.aol.com/heraklit1/spinoza.htm

So if one takes your idea or their ideas seriously, the end result is the same: 'There is really no God'.

The Duality of 'Real Universe & Powerful God with strong human-like character or ego' is a necessary and very important condition for the establishment of religion as well as spirituality.

 

[AAF]

DiamondHearts: "...Allah swt has always been and will always be, He has no beginning and no end. Allah swt created everything in the universe and everything is subservient to Him, He is the ultimate master of all that exists. Nothing happens without His knowledge. He was, He is, and He will be at the same exact time. He exists outside of time and space and is not subject to His creation of time and space, He has no limitations. Allah swt is absolute perfection and His form is unknown to us. If He were to show His form to us while we are in our current bodies, we would perish due to the sheer magnificience of the Allah swt. This is Muslim belief...".




Clearly, your pronouncements about the nature of Allah (the Islamic God) break the long-standing prohibition which has been imposed by the Muslim Clergy since the Twelfth Century against such theological discussions. And so, in this regard, you are a heretic!

The ban on theology was a direct result of the dismal failure of Muslims during the Middle Ages to prove through logic and reason the existence of Allah.

Imam Al-Ghazali, in his various books, documented that stunning defeat with breath-taking clarity.
Check him out! http://www.ghazali.org/

Now, my dear friend, you will be the greatest Muslim alive, if you can convince your narrow-minded clerics that their ban on theology is wrong. And that theology must be re-installed and studied and discussed at length in every Islamic madrassa (religious school).

That is because theology is a great tool for combating fanaticism and bigotry, and for broadening the minds and enhancing and widening the imagination of religious students and religious clergy alike.

Can you do it?

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

If God is unimaginable, then He is logically untenable, and therefore, He does not exist.

The same is true for all other unimaginable things, regadless of the number and the authority of the people who believe in them.

The rule of thumb is 'IF YOU CAN'T IMAGIME THEM, THEN YOU ARE MAKING THEM UP AND THEY ARE NOT REAL'.

AAF, reality is not limited to our imaginations, which is why reality is interesting. Things that can be imagined will always be based on the things that have been experienced.

 

[(Q)]

AAF, reality is not limited to our imaginations, which is why reality is interesting. Things that can be imagined will always be based on the things that have been experienced.

Not true, I can imagine many things I've had no experience with, so can you.

 

[AAF]

AAF, reality is not limited to our imaginations, which is why reality is interesting. Things that can be imagined will always be based on the things that have been experienced.

Whenever one supposes as given and takes for granted an un-imagined entity as real, you can, D.D., be absolutely certain that contradictions in the process of investigating that person's ideas and basic beliefs have been encountered and uncovered. And that person has no other choice but to give up rational thinking altogether and to embrace irrationality in order to keep those wrong beliefs as true inspite of contrary evidence.

Assuming the un-imagined and the un-perceived to explain some part of reality is, without doubt, the royal road to irrational thinking and superstitions. One simply cannot admit the un-perceived as basic; and remains rational. It's impossible. And it cannot be done!

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Not true, I can imagine many things I've had no experience with, so can you.

I'm sure you can put together something you have no experience with (e.g. a purple giraffe), but it will have component qualities that you have experienced.

I would be surprised if you can imagine a colour you have never seen, or what it's like in the 7th dimension? Can you imagine what light particle/waves actually look like? You could win a Nobel Prize if you can describe it!

Assuming the un-imagined and the un-perceived to explain some part of reality is, without doubt, the royal road to irrational thinking and superstitions. One simply cannot admit the un-perceived as basic; and remains rational. It's impossible. And it cannot be done!

Well, String theory predicts at least 11 dimensions - can you imagine events in the 11th dimension? It is unimagined and unperceived (except in mathematical terms), but a lot of smart and rational people believe it! Those branes you were looking at earlier are multi-dimensional too. Even the universe is expanding in the 4th spacial dimension (is that imaginable or perceivable - height, width, breadth and ...err). Words words words - So easy to say, so difficult to jusitfy.

 

[wesmorris]

um first thing, god was always their. human minds cannot comprehend eternity but god always existed.

*sigh*

uhm, that's just not quality thinking.

you say it's there and that you can't comprehend it, so how do you know it's there?

faithful people need not defend their faith, or it's not really faith, is it?

 

[DiamondHearts]

DiamondHearts: "...Allah swt has always been and will always be, He has no beginning and no end. Allah swt created everything in the universe and everything is subservient to Him, He is the ultimate master of all that exists. Nothing happens without His knowledge. He was, He is, and He will be at the same exact time. He exists outside of time and space and is not subject to His creation of time and space, He has no limitations. Allah swt is absolute perfection and His form is unknown to us. If He were to show His form to us while we are in our current bodies, we would perish due to the sheer magnificience of the Allah swt. This is Muslim belief...".




Clearly, your pronouncements about the nature of Allah (the Islamic God) break the long-standing prohibition which has been imposed by the Muslim Clergy since the Twelfth Century against such theological discussions. And so, in this regard, you are a heretic!

There was never any such thing. I'm a student of Islamic theology, I would know about this. To my fellow Muslims, I'm not a heretic, I'm a student of religion.

Islamic encourages debate on Allah swt and the Prophet Muhammad (s) often engaged in debate with Christians, Jews, and Polytheists about various topics. The Quran allows conversation on theology and belief of Allah swt, otherwise how would we as Muslims know Allah swt and his virtues if not for Quran, Hadith, and the Scholars' discussions on these.

The ban on theology was a direct result of the dismal failure of Muslims during the Middle Ages to prove through logic and reason the existence of Allah.

Imam Al-Ghazali, in his various books, documented that stunning defeat with breath-taking clarity.
Check him out! http://www.ghazali.org/

Not true, proof of Allah swt's existence is life itself. It is the perfect order of things which the divine will of Allah swt that created all.

Imam Ghazali (ra) was one of the greatest of the scholars in Islamic history, and he often discussed the truth and virtue of Islam and the perfection of Allah swt's creation as proof of Allah swt.

Now, my dear friend, you will be the greatest Muslim alive, if you can convince your narrow-minded clerics that their ban on theology is wrong. And that theology must be re-installed and studied and discussed at length in every Islamic madrassa (religious school).

That is because theology is a great tool for combating fanaticism and bigotry, and for broadening the minds and enhancing and widening the imagination of religious students and religious clergy alike.

Can you do it?

No such ban exists. Islam does not have a clergy, nor a central order. Muslim scholars range widely in their followers and even beliefs.

I am a student of Islamic theology, if such a ban existed I would know about it.

Peace.

 

[DiamondHearts]

To those who reject the idea of Allah swt (God) as the creator and sustainer of the universe, i ask you this question, rare conditions to support life happen by chance?

Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) had a debate about this with an atheist but was late for the debate. When he did arrive the agitated atheist asked Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) what happened, to which he replied, ‘we came to a river but there was no boat, but fortunately a tree fell into the river, the bark came of, snapped into half and all the insides came out and a boat was made for us.’ The atheist said, ‘I hear that you are a great scholar, do you really expect me to believe that stupid excuse?’ And Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) said, ‘I find it quite odd that you can believe that these skies and there is order, this earth and its order, all of this could have just magically appeared without somebody to build it, like the boat builder has to build the boat.’

http://spaces.msn.com/mysocalledblog/blog/

"Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, in the alternation of night and day, in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of the people, in the water which Allaah sends down from the skies reviving with it the dead earth and dispersing over it all kinds of beasts, in the change of the winds, and in the clouds that run their appointed courses between heaven and earth: In all of this, indeed there are signs for people of understanding."
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:164)

"Blessed be He to Whom all sovereignty belongs; He has power over all things. He Who Created death and life that He may test which of you is best in deed. He is the Almighty, the Oft-forgiving. He Who Created the seven heavens one above another. You can see no fault in the Creation of the Bestower of Mercy. Turn up your eyes: Can you detect a single flaw? Look once more, and yet again: Your sight will in the end grow humbled and weary."
(Surah Al-Mulk 67:1-4)

"On the earth are signs visible to all who have faith with certainty, just as there are signs within your ownselves. Will you then not see?"
(Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51:20-21)

"Were they created of nothing? or were they perchance, their own creators? or did they create the heavens and the earth? surely they have no firm belief."
(Surah At-Tur 52:35-36)

 

[(Q)]

I'm sure you can put together something you have no experience with (e.g. a purple giraffe), but it will have component qualities that you have experienced.

I would be surprised if you can imagine a colour you have never seen, or what it's like in the 7th dimension? Can you imagine what light particle/waves actually look like? You could win a Nobel Prize if you can describe it!

I can, like you, put together a concept of a god, something neither one of us has had any experience with.

If we were unable to imagine that which we've had no experience with, we'd have no imaginations at all. Theists imagine gods, yet no two theists perception of their gods match, kinda like fingerprints.

Well, String theory predicts at least 11 dimensions - can you imagine events in the 11th dimension? It is unimagined and unperceived (except in mathematical terms), but a lot of smart and rational people believe it! Those branes you were looking at earlier are multi-dimensional too. Even the universe is expanding in the 4th spacial dimension (is that imaginable or perceivable - height, width, breadth and ...err). Words words words - So easy to say, so difficult to jusitfy.

I consider string and brane theory to be mere fads, soon to be placed on their respective shelves. And although the math, which I'm also not familiar with, is apparently sound, the theory has yet to make any quantifiable predictions.

And we do live in a 4-dimensional spacetime, perhaps no so easy to explain to the layman, but certainly not difficult to justify.

 

[(Q)]

To those who reject the idea of Allah swt (God) as the creator and sustainer of the universe, i ask you this question, rare conditions to support life happen by chance?

That is one of the biggest mistakes theists make in regards to the creation of the universe, that it somehow formed to sustain us. They can't seem to get it through their thick heads that we were a result of the universe, not the other way round.

Of course, they would much rather believe an invisible entity waved his magic hand and *poof* here we are.

Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) had a debate about this with an atheist but was late for the debate. When he did arrive the agitated atheist asked Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) what happened, to which he replied, ‘we came to a river but there was no boat, but fortunately a tree fell into the river, the bark came of, snapped into half and all the insides came out and a boat was made for us.’ The atheist said, ‘I hear that you are a great scholar, do you really expect me to believe that stupid excuse?’ And Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) said, ‘I find it quite odd that you can believe that these skies and there is order, this earth and its order, all of this could have just magically appeared without somebody to build it, like the boat builder has to build the boat.’

Imam's huge flaw in his argument is that he imagines the universe and everything in it magically appeared from thin air in its present form. He is far from being a "great scholar" and is in fact quite ignorant.

"Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, in the alternation of night and day, in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of the people, in the water which Allaah sends down from the skies reviving with it the dead earth and dispersing over it all kinds of beasts, in the change of the winds, and in the clouds that run their appointed courses between heaven and earth: In all of this, indeed there are signs for people of understanding."

Theistic, mystical, mumbo-jumbo.

"Blessed be He to Whom all sovereignty belongs; He has power over all things. He Who Created death and life that He may test which of you is best in deed. He is the Almighty, the Oft-forgiving. He Who Created the seven heavens one above another. You can see no fault in the Creation of the Bestower of Mercy. Turn up your eyes: Can you detect a single flaw? Look once more, and yet again: Your sight will in the end grow humbled and weary."

Flaws have already been identified throughout Islam in regards to creationism, but Muslims are forbidden to admit it.

 

[AAF]

Diogenes' Dog: "...Well, String theory predicts at least 11 dimensions - can you imagine events in the 11th dimension? It is unimagined and unperceived (except in mathematical terms), but a lot of smart and rational people believe it! Those branes you were looking at earlier are multi-dimensional too. Even the universe is expanding in the 4th spacial dimension (is that imaginable or perceivable - height, width, breadth and ...err). Words words words - So easy to say, so difficult to jusitfy".



Well, they (the smart and rational people of the 11th dimension!), at least, have mathematicl terms and entities to refer to, when you ask.

There is nothing mysterious or incomprehensible about playing around with algebra and its symbols. Their only mistake, from the standpoint of logic, is their liberal use of geometrical analogies and images that are completely at odds with their hypotheses.

And in any case, their theories fall into the notorious category of Weird Science, most of which turns out almost always to be wrong.
http://www.amasci.com/weird.html

 

[AAF]

DiamondHearts: "There was never any such thing. I'm a student of Islamic theology, I would know about this. To my fellow Muslims, I'm not a heretic, I'm a student of religion...".



Very good!

Denying the BAN is a very important step towards taking it out of the clerics' heads. But make sure you have done it the right way!
It's dangerous and it may backfire.
http://india.indymedia.org/en/2006/01/211319.shtml

Be advised!

Your narrow-minded clerics are very tough and usually become very angry when you throw the following and very basic question on them:

Who created the Creator (Allah)?