grover: "
The fact that Denys can't describe a subjective experience is not ludicrous at all. You can't describe blue - yet you can see it right? SO just because something can't be described does not make it "ludicrous." Secondly, you and I both know blue when we see it right? AND we can both look at the sky and agree it is blue right? So this suggests that it isn't simply a hallucination. It means we are having a subjective experience which can not be put into language but we are capable of recognizing others as having the same experience. Denys does not claim that only he can perceive God, he claims all people could perceive God. Like I said before you're argument at this point boils down to calling all subjective experiences hallucinations. You are also the equivalent of a blind person that says sight is impossible ".
Re: Subjective things can exist only inside the brain of the perceiving entity. There is no way around this simple fact. Therefore, if Dynes' God is subjective, then He has no actual existence, except in the form of a tiny electric current inside Dynes' head. You believe that Dynes' God is real because he couldn't describe Him for us! Why should we take his claim seriously? You don't have one single reason to justify this. The fact that there is a host of other subjective things beside Dynes' God would not make his supposed 'God' real. Furthermore, hallucinations are unique to the type of the perceiving entities. Consequently, people (i.e., Homo sapiens) can agree on perceiving unreal and non-existent things such as colors and tones and smells, even though this kind of perceptions is hallucinatory and with no actual existence at all. And so your perception of the blue color is equivalent to that of a drunken man who thinks every thing is really spinning just because his head and the heads of his friends are doing all the spinning; right?
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grover: "
Yes, but we can both look at the sky and agree it is blue. What we are talking about is subjective experience and language. You seem to think that just because Denys can't describe God that makes his claim completely preposterous. I'm just refuting this point. You have a serious case of "point drift" (i.e., your arguing against the case you want to be arguing against not against the actual case that is being made) ".
Re: There is no drift on my part! As I said earlier, hallucinations are unique only to the kind of the perceiving entities. The general consensus that the sky is blue, therefore, is no proof of the reality of the color blue.
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grover: "
No, you've made a very interesting point. But, we both can look at the sky and agree it's blue right? So there is something about the interaction between sky and mind that creates blue indicating there is something objectively observable going on. Beyond that though, you know seem to be arguing that only mind is real, that the outside world is unknowable. It's interesting to ponder this issue but besides the point ".
Re: Again, agreement does not exclude hallucination. We look at the sky and agree it's blue; why? It's because the gas molecules in the earth's atmosphere scatter light whose wavelength is (475 nm). As seen from the moon, for example, the sky is black. Now, all objects that emit or reflect light of (475 nm) must look blue to humans; why? It's because this type of light interacts with the human eye and causes a minute electric current, which is received and perceived by the human brain as a sensation we call 'blue'. And this sensation of the blue is the hallucination, because it has no actual existence outside the human brain. Light is real; emitting and reflecting objects are real; the human eye is real; and the human brain is real. But the sensation of the color blue (other sensations included) is hallucinatory, subjective, and unreal.
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grover: "
Well, there is clearly some objective phenomenon occurring when we both look at the sky and agree it is blue. If your blue looks different than my blue is impossible to ever solve. Because even if we could somehow project the blue you are seeing onto a screen we have no idea if when I look at it I'm seeing my blue or your blue. Interesting to ponder ".
Re: The test for seeing blue is really simple and can be done very quickly by any eye doctor.
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grover: "
No, it isn't a hallucination. A hallucination is seeing something that isn't there at all. With the perception of blue it seems that some objective phenomenon is being observed. Experiment: show person A blue object X. Have him write down what color he saw. Then show person B the same object and have him write down what they saw. Both will say "blue" which indicates an objectively observed phenomenon ".
Re: Their agreement indicates only that they both have a sensation, not necessarily the same sensation, but it's a sensation nonetheless. Notice that the word 'blue' can have a different meaning for both of them. That is why an eye exam is necessary for proving that their two sensations are the same.
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grover: "
I'm just not going to buy into your bullshit and agree with you that blue is simply a hallucination. There is some objectively observed phenomenon ".
Re: You have to buy it; you have no other option! The sensation of the blue is hallucinatory, subjective, and unreal. The same applies to all other forms of sensation, including (red, black, yellow, hot, cold, painful, lovely, delicious, adorable, and smelly).
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grover: "
The point of all this is that blue is subjectively observed, can't be described with language, two people who are seeing blue agree that what they are seeing is blue, and that it isn't simply a hallucination. That is all true for Denys God as well ".
Re: 'Subjectively observed' is an oxymoron! The right phrase is 'subjectively felt'. For Dynes, however, the chances that he felt or sensed his 'God', even as a hallucination, are very slim. All the available evidence points to the possibility that he made the whole thing up to fool the guys and impress the ladies!
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grover: "
What exact attributes does blue have again "?
Re: The sensation of blue is closer to the sensation of black than to the sensation of white; right?
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grover: "
Is your brain haywire because you see blue "?
Re: If your brain is telling you that the blue color is an actual attribute of real things, then it must have gone haywire!
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grover: "
No, you're once again stating that blue is a hallucination. Blue is not simply a hallucination. Get over it ".
Re: No; you have to get over it! This lousy sensation of the blue is hallucinatory, subjective, and unreal.
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grover: "
That doesn't = hallucination ".
Re: The (blue sensation = hallucination).
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grover: "
Denys never said God is elfish. He said you would have to perceive it yourself to know what he is talking about ".
Re: If Dynes' God hid and concealed all his attributes from the prying eyes of Dynes, then He must have been elfish, impish, mischievous, playful!
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grover: "
No, I will not thank you for making the insane claim that all subjective experiences are hallucinations. That's what you are saying ".
Re: I'm not asking you to thank me for pointing out that simple fact to you. I'm urging you to thank me for saving you just in the nick of time from the insane humbug of Dynes, the Mystic; okay?
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grover: "
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make sound "?
Re: Let's see! The falling tree must set the surrounding air into vibrating mode. Those vibrations must travel out as sound waves with frequencies in the audible-band range. Accordingly, the sound waves caused by the falling tree exist regardless of the observer. But, and this is very important, the sensations caused by these sound waves cannot exist in the absence of the human observer, because they can exist only in the form of very minute electric currents inside the human brain and the brains of similar entities. The sensations of sound, like the sensations of light, therefore, are hallucinatory, subjective, and unreal.
