God is on your side in time of war

[lightgigantic]

Godless

“
and if you go a bit deeper into history you will also notice a greater pattern - namely that war mongers capitalize on powerful social forces to meet their desires, and lo and behold, religion happens to be one of them (DHOA!)
”

Actually that's a canard, they USED religion to obtain that power! DHOA!

so what?
If one uses some field of knowledge to fulfill one's immediate concerns, that says nothing about whether the knowledge is bona fide or not - all it suggests is that at sometime some person utilized a field of knowledge to fulfill their needs interests and concerns

“
that aside, saying that because religion bears a social influence it is false is ridiculous since religion that didn't bear a social influence would be ten times more absurd (or maybe you are alluding to something truly esoteric, like religion should neither bear nor not bear a social influence to be deemed truly acceptable)
”
Actually ignorant masses fell for the BS, long ago, since then they started "FORCING" their ideological bullshit, and those who didn't comply either were banned from the clan, or killed, burned, etc..

aren't you also forcing your ideology (to the extent of your powers of course)

some complied to only save their hide, i.e. Jews who converted to Catholicism but maintained secretly their Jewish religion, that's just one example of how many individuals may have been secular but lied in order to save their skin..Closet atheists..

What is unfortunately however is the masses of deluded individuals still fall for the same bullshit till today, when preachers, churches, politicians still use religious ideologies to manipulated, cohort and live off the backs of individuals such as your self!

and the good news is that even if atheism wins the tide they will continue to utilize various social ideologies to manipulate, cohort and live off the back of individuals - are you happy now?

 

[Godless]

so what?
If one uses some field of knowledge to fulfill one's immediate concerns, that says nothing about whether the knowledge is bona fide or not - all it suggests is that at sometime some person utilized a field of knowledge to fulfill their needs interests and concerns

How can I argue with this? Please re-read what you stated, thus religion is nothing more than a tool, to be used, to "fulfill the needs, interests & concerns of the geographical clans' leaders"

aren't you also forcing your ideology (to the extent of your powers of course)

NO! Atheists don't force anyone to believe in reason, most of us come on that on our own. If you are going to use the "atheist communists" tactic remember this. The communists were not atheists, they only replaced one mystic ideology with another. Instead of worshiping the church they worship the state!

and the good news is that even if atheism wins the tide they will continue to utilize various social ideologies to manipulate, cohort and live off the back of individuals - are you happy now?

This is off the subject, (not religious) thus this is getting into second guessing what ideologies will prevail, I doubt that honest people will cohort and live off the back of individuals. Key word here LG is "honest" people K!

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless

“
so what?
If one uses some field of knowledge to fulfill one's immediate concerns, that says nothing about whether the knowledge is bona fide or not - all it suggests is that at sometime some person utilized a field of knowledge to fulfill their needs interests and concerns
”
How can I argue with this? Please re-read what you stated, thus religion is nothing more than a tool, to be used, to "fulfill the needs, interests & concerns of the geographical clans' leaders"

since practically all fields of knowledge have been used in the same manner, should we disband them as well?

“
aren't you also forcing your ideology (to the extent of your powers of course)
”
NO! Atheists don't force anyone to believe in reason,

like stalin and mao?

most of us come on that on our own.

"a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

If you are going to use the "atheist communists" tactic remember this. The communists were not atheists, they only replaced one mystic ideology with another. Instead of worshiping the church they worship the state!

thats my point - you have nothing to work with for a social ideology, yet you insist on tearing down religion to address the inherent problems with having a social ideology (are you some sort of misanthropist or anarchist?)

“
and the good news is that even if atheism wins the tide they will continue to utilize various social ideologies to manipulate, cohort and live off the back of individuals - are you happy now?
”
This is off the subject, (not religious) thus this is getting into second guessing what ideologies will prevail, I doubt that honest people will cohort and live off the back of individuals. Key word here LG is "honest" people K!

yes, it certainly is the key word, and given the poor track record of the conditioned living entity in this regard it is quite predictable

 

[Godless]

since practically all fields of knowledge have been used in the same manner, should we disband them as well?

Being absurd does fit you well

like stalin and mao?

They were not atheist! they were stateists

"a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

Eh? :shrug:

thats my point - you have nothing to work with for a social ideology, yet you insist on tearing down religion to address the inherent problems with having a social ideology (are you some sort of misanthropist or anarchist?)

Misanthropist? You got to be kidding! Religion has been the worst hatred of man kind conceived by man. And I'm no anarchist either!

One can have a social ideology without that ideology being a religion! That is not all social behaviors are religious! Religion is based on ignorance, rationalizations an attempt to explain metaphysical existence by ancient ignorant schizophrenics who thought dreams were influential in reality, who's visions became angels, gods, etc... all really was just an infantile primitive imagination!

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless

“
since practically all fields of knowledge have been used in the same manner, should we disband them as well?
”
Being absurd does fit you well

I am just practically applying the general principles behind your argument - it is a good way to determine whether an argument is absurd or not ....

“
like stalin and mao?
”
They were not atheist! they were stateists

with a particular view regarding god - 9according to your view) it seems like any flavour of theist is inseparable from their social policies but not an atheist

“
thats my point - you have nothing to work with for a social ideology, yet you insist on tearing down religion to address the inherent problems with having a social ideology (are you some sort of misanthropist or anarchist?)
”
Misanthropist? You got to be kidding! Religion has been the worst hatred of man kind conceived by man. And I'm no anarchist either!

well whats your big social ideology since you frown heavily on anything that convinces anyone of anything?

One can have a social ideology without that ideology being a religion!

yes of course - but the issue of your posts seems to be "Look how bad religion is - it has a social ideology"

That is not all social behaviors are religious!

and not all issues of religion are with the social issues of materialistic power and control

Religion is based on ignorance, rationalizations an attempt to explain metaphysical existence by ancient ignorant schizophrenics who thought dreams were influential in reality, who's visions became angels, gods, etc... all really was just an infantile primitive imagination!

a colorful opinion but not really uselful for debate since it is bereft of premises

 

[Godless]

with a particular view regarding god - 9according to your view) it seems like any flavour of theist is inseparable from their social policies but not an atheist

Basically what they did is replace one form of mystic concept with another, thus replacing the myth of worship religion with worship the state!

The ideology worked, these people were already programed through religious doctrine to accept force!

well whats your big social ideology since you frown heavily on anything that convinces anyone of anything?

Humanism!

yes of course - but the issue of your posts seems to be "Look how bad religion is - it has a social ideology"

Merely of observation without out blind eyes LG!

and not all issues of religion are with the social issues of materialistic power and control

Provide evidence of this claim!

a colorful opinion but not really uselful for debate since it is bereft of premises

Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness and the Break Down of the Bicameral Mind. read it!

 

[lightgigantic]

godless

“
with a particular view regarding god - 9according to your view) it seems like any flavour of theist is inseparable from their social policies but not an atheist
”
Basically what they did is replace one form of mystic concept with another, thus replacing the myth of worship religion with worship the state!

The ideology worked, these people were already programed through religious doctrine to accept force!

and you are so high and mighty you can reject force?

“
well whats your big social ideology since you frown heavily on anything that convinces anyone of anything?
”
Humanism!

and what does that involve (and what programs require to be established by what means to make the rest of the world involved in it - remember you not allowed to mimic any of the 'false ideological principles of theism or even communism)

“
yes of course - but the issue of your posts seems to be "Look how bad religion is - it has a social ideology"
”
Merely of observation without out blind eyes LG!

perhaps you are lacking in other functional organs of the human body if you think you can present a human society without a social ideology

“
and not all issues of religion are with the social issues of materialistic power and control
”
Provide evidence of this claim!

evidence that religion has issues aside from those related to the control of society?
as a born again atheist surely you can even see how not many of the ten commandments seem to fit that bill .....

“
a colorful opinion but not really uselful for debate since it is bereft of premises
”
Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness and the Break Down of the Bicameral Mind. read it!

so it seems that Julian Jaynes has 'forced' his belief system on to you, thus replacing one mystic system with another - hmmm - I guess you are not so high and mighty after all

 

[Equator]

I agree with the original thesis. The assertion that God is on a particular society’s side of a military conflict is demagoguery which appeals to the sin of social pride. Despite the false teaching, Jesus and early Christians were not militant. They viewed themselves as brethren regardless of social (e.g. national) affiliation and focused their warfare against spiritual, not carnal forces. It is interesting to note that Jesus and New Testament writers like Paul, taught submission (except when commanded to disobey God) to tyrannically oppressive heathen rulers who considered themselves gods whom sadistically slaughtered Christians and crucified Jesus himself. Jesus never advocated revolution like America's founding fathers. Jesus never taught that God was on a society's side. His kingdom was no part of this world. This is my conclusion despite my 21 years in the military.

 

[Godless]

and you are so high and mighty you can reject force?

If one is forced to loose their freedom, yes! Suicide is an option.

(and what programs require to be established by what means to make the rest of the world involved in it - remember you not allowed to mimic any of the 'false ideological principles of theism or even communism)

A republic, is not religious nor is it communistic, it's not even democratic. Though the democratic system used to select our leaders is involved. It should be plain for you to see, that the republic of United States, had it's principles in running a secular government.

perhaps you are lacking in other functional organs of the human body if you think you can present a human society without a social ideology

It's because you lack REASON that you can't see that all social ideologies was not mentioned. Only mystical ones!

evidence that religion has issues aside from those related to the control of society?

Is this how you answer a goddamn question? always answering with a question LG will get you to where your at. In a blind alley!

as a born again atheist surely you can even see how not many of the ten commandments seem to fit that bill

I'm not a born again atheist! you fucking demand respect but then you don't give it! A$$hole!

The ten commandments is older than the bible, it's origins are not from the Hebrews but from Egypt's Book of the Dead!

so it seems that Julian Jaynes has 'forced' his belief system on to you,

Are you really this idiotic? The man is dead, he has not forced any beliefs on anyone it's a theory that has lots more evidence than your Vedas bull shit!!!!

 

[Equator]

Does anyone have any non-ad-hominem comment on the issue below? I believe that this discussion concerns the issue as follows:
"Believing that "God is on our side" of war makes it easier for us to inflict pain and suffering on those perceived to be our enemies. If we think God sanctions violence, are we more likely to engage in violent acts. This is true even among those who do not consider themselves believers in God."

 

[Godless]

If we think God sanctions violence, are we more likely to engage in violent acts. This is true even among those who do not consider themselves believers in God."

If one doesn't believe in god, there wouldn't be any thinking that god sanctions anything!!

As far as history can tell us, only men have fought wars, no gods have been involved in the endeavors of men. Believing god is on each opponents side only brings courage to the slaughter of men.

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless
“

and you are so high and mighty you can reject force?
”
If one is forced to loose their freedom, yes! Suicide is an option.

bravo!!

“
(and what programs require to be established by what means to make the rest of the world involved in it - remember you not allowed to mimic any of the 'false ideological principles of theism or even communism)
”
A republic, is not religious nor is it communistic, it's not even democratic. Though the democratic system used to select our leaders is involved. It should be plain for you to see, that the republic of United States, had it's principles in running a secular government.

but it still uses force in the form of social ideology, even if it is bereft of religion or communism (it might be about oil for instance), so its not clear why
berate religion simply because the social ideology is seen to involve force

“
perhaps you are lacking in other functional organs of the human body if you think you can present a human society without a social ideology
”
It's because you lack REASON that you can't see that all social ideologies was not mentioned. Only mystical ones!

but the only reasons you are putting forward for rejecting them are that they involve force - my point is that all social ideologies involve force .... which gets back to what was said earlier about you being a misanthropist (should we reject all social ideologies then?)

“
evidence that religion has issues aside from those related to the control of society?
”
Is this how you answer a goddamn question? always answering with a question LG will get you to where your at. In a blind alley!

your question came across as absurd

“
as a born again atheist surely you can even see how not many of the ten commandments seem to fit that bill
”
I'm not a born again atheist! you fucking demand respect but then you don't give it! A$$hole!

I didn't realize that would run over your raw nerves - I was meaning that you must be familiar with the ten commandments since you are sold out to mud slinging christianity - surely they are evidence that religion has issues that are not solely dedicated to control of society but introspection (how would you propose that a social body be formed to determine if a person is looking lustfully at another woman?)

The ten commandments is older than the bible, it's origins are not from the Hebrews but from Egypt's Book of the Dead!

whatever - still they are pretty important to christians a lot and get more than the odd mention in their sermons

“
so it seems that Julian Jaynes has 'forced' his belief system on to you,
”
Are you really this idiotic? The man is dead,

does a person's (published) ideas die with them ?

he has not forced any beliefs on anyone

saturating a media constitutes an act of force - like for instance in the hey day of capitalist america it was illegal to print communist literature - any guesses why?

it's a theory that has lots more evidence than your Vedas bull shit!!!!

godless ol chum just a bit of advice from the school of coherent argument - before lodging an attack on some idea, which is after all the essence of debate, you should establish your own premise - at the moment you have "my idea is good because yours is bullshit" - even though you may think that is true, the essence of good debate rests upon presenting premises for one's opinions

 

[lightgigantic]

Does anyone have any non-ad-hominem comment on the issue below?

that's a bit of a tall order on this forum

I believe that this discussion concerns the issue as follows:
"Believing that "God is on our side" of war makes it easier for us to inflict pain and suffering on those perceived to be our enemies. If we think God sanctions violence, are we more likely to engage in violent acts. This is true even among those who do not consider themselves believers in God."

correct - with or without god, the powers that be will utilize whatever exists in the form of national identity to achieve their goals - this however says nothing about the nature of god but perhaps something about the nature of persons who misrepresent him, and also persons who willingly accept such misrepresenters

 

[Godless]

but it still uses force in the form of social ideology, even if it is bereft of religion or communism (it might be about oil for instance)

Man you do need a lesson in social behavior. One does not have to depend on oil, buy a bike. In a free society, one does depends on goods and services on a voluntary basis, capitalism is not a "force" or die type of social structure. In a "free capitalistic" society (one of which has never seen the face of earth) Laize-faire capitalism has never existed in any nation, however in this case goods and values are traded on a voluntary basis!. Can you comprehend that a commercial company can't "force" their goods and services on you?

Also a republic government, has to have force, a type of force to protect it's citizens from harm, or fraud! A police force, military arms services. In a free society police/military does not necessarily mean that they are a force against it's citizens, but a way to protect a free society from invasion from another country, and a police to protect it's citizens from each other!

The grounds for objective law must be kept, thus killing a person without provocation, in a republic is against the law, the individual found culpable of such a crime must go through the justice system, if found guilty, society must be protected so the guy goes to jail. That's not force, that's justice!!

your question came across as absurd

Or you really don't have an answer!

- I was meaning that you must be familiar with the ten commandments since you are sold out to mud slinging christianity

The ten-commandments origins is not christianity, but Egypt's book of the dead!
Christianity is not the core owner of morality! those rules written in the ten-commandments were practically known already in many societies, before the Hebrews ever put it on writing! You do know Hinduism is older then christianity don't you? Well did the Hindus live a life, bereft of social morals?

does a person's (published) ideas die with them ?

Of course not, however his ideas were not "FORCED" upon me!

saturating a media constitutes an act of force - like for instance in the hey day of capitalist america it was illegal to print communist literature - any guesses why?

No it does not! American never had a "hay day of capitalism" if it had, then publishing communistic literature would have not been against the law!.

America is and always has been a mixed economy.

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless

“
but it still uses force in the form of social ideology, even if it is bereft of religion or communism (it might be about oil for instance)
”
Man you do need a lesson in social behavior. One does not have to depend on oil, buy a bike.

think again
the bike is heavily dependent on oil for its manufacturing and merchandising

In a free society, one does depends on goods and services on a voluntary basis, capitalism is not a "force" or die type of social structure. In a "free capitalistic" society (one of which has never seen the face of earth) Laize-faire capitalism has never existed in any nation, however in this case goods and values are traded on a voluntary basis!. Can you comprehend that a commercial company can't "force" their goods and services on you?

the fact that it has never been seen on the face of the earth should indicate the required level of comprehension

Also a republic government, has to have force, a type of force to protect it's citizens from harm, or fraud! A police force, military arms services. In a free society police/military does not necessarily mean that they are a force against it's citizens, but a way to protect a free society from invasion from another country, and a police to protect it's citizens from each other!

so there you have it - force is involved - since they have an ideology that requires protection there is force - therefore there should be no need to reject social ideologies that spring up in the presence of religion simply because they also involve force

The grounds for objective law must be kept, thus killing a person without provocation, in a republic is against the law, the individual found culpable of such a crime must go through the justice system, if found guilty, society must be protected so the guy goes to jail. That's not force, that's justice!!

force and justice are inseparable

“
your question came across as absurd
”
Or you really don't have an answer!

if you read it again you will realize I did answer it after I posted that

“
- I was meaning that you must be familiar with the ten commandments since you are sold out to mud slinging christianity
”
The ten-commandments origins is not christianity, but Egypt's book of the dead!

whatever - still crops up as essential christianity

Christianity is not the core owner of morality!

and it would be foolish to suggets that it does

those rules written in the ten-commandments were practically known already in many societies, before the Hebrews ever put it on writing!

funny how we can still forget them at inopportune moments don't you think?

You do know Hinduism is older then christianity don't you? Well did the Hindus live a life, bereft of social morals?

actually the reason I brought up the ten commandments was because you asked for it .......

“
“
me - and not all issues of religion are with the social issues of materialistic power and control
”
you - Provide evidence of this claim!

many instructions pertinent to religion deal with introspection and not the reins of power

“
does a person's (published) ideas die with them ?
”
Of course not, however his ideas were not "FORCED" upon me!

thats because you acquiescenced to them
a influences b
b influences a
or a and b negate one another

“
saturating a media constitutes an act of force - like for instance in the hey day of capitalist america it was illegal to print communist literature - any guesses why?
”
No it does not!

is it just a coincidence that one off the first things a dictator does on the rise to power is take control of the mass media?

American never had a "hay day of capitalism" if it had,

"better dead than red" doesn't ring a bell?
.

 

[Godless]

think again
the bike is heavily dependent on oil for its manufacturing and merchandising

Bikes don't sell for $10000 or more LG, get your brain out of the Vedas and perhaps you can understand what I was trying to imply. If you use a bike. YOU are not so dependent on gas to go around town! Now think of 80million citizens of a country getting about in bikes, their use/dependencies on oil will be considerably less.

the fact that it has never been seen on the face of the earth should indicate the required level of comprehension

:shrug:

It's quite hard to make sense of non-serquitus blank statements

so there you have it - force is involved

Not in the way that you imply. Force involved only when force is used against you, a person who commits a crime or defrauds you should be able to pay for his crime. That's not force that's justice.

force and justice are inseparable

See there this is what happens when reason tries to explain a simpleton mindless theist that force is needed for those who commit crimes against another! The only force is justified by their crimes. This is not like stoning to death your son for going to work on the Sabbath.

Is there no justice in Hinduism? Is there no force in Hinduism?

actually the reason I brought up the ten commandments was because you asked for it .......

In what post? evidence that I've asked anything from a simpleton!

The rest of yourshit is not worth even replying!
Overandout, tired of discussing stuff with a simpleton.

 

[lightgigantic]

Godless
“

think again
the bike is heavily dependent on oil for its manufacturing and merchandising
”
Bikes don't sell for $10000 or more LG, get your brain out of the Vedas and perhaps you can understand what I was trying to imply. If you use a bike. YOU are not so dependent on gas to go around town!

instead you are dependent on gas to supply your bike and everything you go around on your bike to supply yourself with

Now think of 80million citizens of a country getting about in bikes, their use/dependencies on oil will be considerably less.

less, but dependent none the less - after all people cannot eat bikes (if you want to examine the essential question of economic dependence just look at agriculture)

“
so there you have it - force is involved
”
Not in the way that you imply. Force involved only when force is used against you, a person who commits a crime or defrauds you should be able to pay for his crime. That's not force that's justice.

and social ideology shapes the form of words like "crime" and "defraud" - which is why justice is reduced to a eunuch if it has no force

“
force and justice are inseparable
”
See there this is what happens when reason tries to explain a simpleton mindless theist that force is needed for those who commit crimes against another!

perhaps you should so intelligently elaborate how one can form the notion of what a crime is without a social ideology - then you would have a case for separating force from justice

The only force is justified by their crimes.

and the crimes are justified by the dominant social ideology - and the dominant social ideology is justified by force - (unless you can establish how a social ideology can exist without force)

This is not like stoning to death your son for going to work on the Sabbath.

it is like having severe economic contrabands on countries that violate one's social ideology (and results in the many thousands of father's sons dying from the resulting social disarray)

Is there no justice in Hinduism? Is there no force in Hinduism?

certainly - but then I was never so foolish to advocate that the existence of force is sufficient for a social ideology to be disregarded

“
actually the reason I brought up the ten commandments was because you asked for it .......
”
In what post?

the one I quoted in the previous post
I got it from here
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1348549&postcount=26

evidence that I've asked anything from a simpleton!

The rest of yourshit is not worth even replying!
Overandout, tired of discussing stuff with a simpleton.

its your quote - not mine