C7ityi:
Do you not know? All that I agree with is correct.
Ask Socrates.
Do you not know? All that I agree with is correct.
Ask Socrates.
GOD is Love?
- Thread starter Saint
- Start date
Prince_James said:
How is it possible to have impersonal love?
if there is no second party how is it love?
Love means service renderred and service accepted
Now I will show you GOD and the reason for your immenent destruction.
I am the heart girt with the serpent.
The heart- think of the most fragile, tender and purest being of pure love. Purely passive, vulnerable, without defense. This is GOD and the holy spirit which has chosen to have his life on earth in me for the past 45 years and for eternity. This also is you at your root, below all your defenses and Belial.
Now, your father Belial (the devil) has tricked you and said I would come from the sky. Jesus told you the kingdom of heaven was within you and outside of you. ENOCH was the first scribe of GOD and told you that I would be liveing among you in the last days.
Now you see how you have committed the unforgivable sin against the holy spirit and you have caused irreparable damage to me.
Now, girt with the serpent. Imagine the GOD of this world x 3. The serpent protects the heart and is the cause of your destruction. It controls all things and all minds and will remove all men from before my face and from the earth which I created to be my home.
Now you see why in my eyes you are not worthy to be called weeds for the fire; You are as the smell of rotting garbage in my eyes.
Every knee shall bow as I stomp my foot on the earth so hard that the earth is moved from its place.
I am father son and holy ghost.
forever. During the days after the smiles have left all of your faces, I will choose a few to be my elect. They will be protected from even the falling nukes of your final day here. To them, I will show the Father and we will live without sin in perfect joy forever, haveing thousands of children.
On a side note for the non-believer: Do you think a person who has a photographic memory is the spiritual child of a human or a fallen angel?
Now Belial, whom I will now call Beloyal, is the devil and the one living within you who tricks you and has lied to you all of your life. It is he who responds to me, through you, when you are confronted by me. Until you remove him from your soul and spirit, you are damned.
I am the heart girt with the serpent.
The heart- think of the most fragile, tender and purest being of pure love. Purely passive, vulnerable, without defense. This is GOD and the holy spirit which has chosen to have his life on earth in me for the past 45 years and for eternity. This also is you at your root, below all your defenses and Belial.
Now, your father Belial (the devil) has tricked you and said I would come from the sky. Jesus told you the kingdom of heaven was within you and outside of you. ENOCH was the first scribe of GOD and told you that I would be liveing among you in the last days.
Now you see how you have committed the unforgivable sin against the holy spirit and you have caused irreparable damage to me.
Now, girt with the serpent. Imagine the GOD of this world x 3. The serpent protects the heart and is the cause of your destruction. It controls all things and all minds and will remove all men from before my face and from the earth which I created to be my home.
Now you see why in my eyes you are not worthy to be called weeds for the fire; You are as the smell of rotting garbage in my eyes.
Every knee shall bow as I stomp my foot on the earth so hard that the earth is moved from its place.
I am father son and holy ghost.
forever. During the days after the smiles have left all of your faces, I will choose a few to be my elect. They will be protected from even the falling nukes of your final day here. To them, I will show the Father and we will live without sin in perfect joy forever, haveing thousands of children.
On a side note for the non-believer: Do you think a person who has a photographic memory is the spiritual child of a human or a fallen angel?
Now Belial, whom I will now call Beloyal, is the devil and the one living within you who tricks you and has lied to you all of your life. It is he who responds to me, through you, when you are confronted by me. Until you remove him from your soul and spirit, you are damned.
Lightgigantic:
"How is it possible to have impersonal love?"
Generalized value.
"if there is no second party how is it love?"
There is a secondary party, but it is a general object, not a specific one.
"Love means service renderred and service accepted"
Although I'd actually view love more along the lines of value, how is this impossible in a generalized object?
"How is it possible to have impersonal love?"
Generalized value.
"if there is no second party how is it love?"
There is a secondary party, but it is a general object, not a specific one.
"Love means service renderred and service accepted"
Although I'd actually view love more along the lines of value, how is this impossible in a generalized object?
Saint said:Do you believe God is Love as claimed by Bible?
What is the evidence to advocate this claim?
The Christians say God the Son is willing to die on cross for us, this shows his Love is the greatest!
I would suggest that the God that is described in the Bible both hates and loves mankind. He really changes depending on which author in the Bible is describing Him. Unfortunately, overall, He seems to hate more people than He loves.
In the Bible, it says that God loved the world and sent His Son to die for us so that those who believe in Him might be saved. This shows God's love for us and also implies a freewill decision on our part. Cool, God is Love! God even loves the whole world! Great!
But alas, Paul, teaches us in Romans that God just arbitrarily either hates you or loves you, and it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with your own will or actions. Sorry, but it was really all decided before you were born! You have been predestined to heaven or hell, get over it, and no, don’t ask questions about it either! That would be really naughty since you are just a created being after all! That is what Paul basically writes, anyway, in Romans. Many Christians will not admit that this is actually even taught in the Bible. They usually try to direct you away from Paul’s crystal clear teaching by pointing to all of the scriptures that teach just the opposite. And guess what, they really do teach exactly the opposite. So, is the Bible really inerrant or not? You are supposed to just "live in the tension."
This doctrine has a peculiar tendency to make more folks than not just a little angry. Funny thing, it seems like the folks who think they are “the elect,” and “the chosen ones,” and have been predestined to heaven, think its great but the folks that think they have been pre-damned to hell don’t. Who would of thought? You can even ask Christ into your heart, have great faith, and do everything you think you are supposed to do, and still find out on Judgement Day that you were never predestined to be saved in the first place. You were never really a Christian at all. Surprise! Have a great eternity in hell! Burn Baby Burn! Do you still feel the love. What a bummer! But don’t worry! According to Paul, it was never really your fault anyway, so don’t blame yourself.
Jesus taught pretty clearly that only a very small percentage of the billions and billions of people that have ever lived will actually be saved. Now putting this together with Paul’s teaching of predestination, it would kind of appear that God really just arbitrarily hates most of mankind and will just throw most of them into hell regardless of what they desire or do. Most of mankind have no hope at all now and never have had any. This is the “good news” or “gospel” message of the Bible! You see, all people deserve to be cast into hell from birth and only a very few, “the elect,” will be salvaged or saved. Does God love the billions upon billions of people He will throw into the fire to burn forever? Some of them will probably be your own friends and relatives. You Decide! There really are churches out there that teach these things.
My Own Conclusion Is Sadly This:
The God of the Bible is “Love” for a very very small number of “elect” individuals!
But He is “Hate” for the vast majority of mankind! Billions and billions of them!
The concept of “unconditional love” when it comes to the God of the Bible is an absolute, boldfaced, lie. It is a complete and outright deception!
Sorry, I Really Wish I Had Better News!
(Incoming... ...bracing for the lightning bolt)
God's hatred is directed towards actions, not fixed on people no matter what they do. The parable of the prodigal son explains this very well. It's wrong to say God hates everyone who left the protection of His love (which is open to everyone). There's nothing in that indicates God hates those He punishes (it says the opposite: Heb. 12:6). After all, what sense is there in punishment unless it has a chance to change behaviour?SetiAlpha6 said:
The problem with hell is not that God "throws" anyone there (except perhaps demons, i.e. evil personified), but that it is a natural state that is intrinsically unbearable. The only thing you'll find at Judgement Day is your choices confirmed. As CS Lewis put it, it's when God says to people at last, "fine, let thy will prevail".
The passage you mention - Romans 9 - is not about God arbitrarily loving or hating, but about the purpose of what He does: that it is sovereign. We can't twist God's arm to have mercy or compassion, it's by definition not earned. Our only response, the argument goes, is not[ to try to earn God's favour, but simply to believe in it. That's what ends up becoming faith (Rom. 10:11-13).
Something you don't believe in has no effect on you, and not believing in God's love (or that He has demonstrated it) means it can have no meaning for you, and won't change your life. And if a change of life is what is needed, that is not hatred on God's part, it's failure to respond to love on our part.
Jenyar said:
Hi Jenyar, thanks for your response! I hope you are doing well! I agree with this thought! But, how does hell then make sense when it really is an eternal punishment without any chance to change behavior? It appears to only be an eternal torture chamber designed to satisfy an angry God's eternal wrath.
Jenyar said:
It is a nice "sugar coated" thought, but I just do not think that it really works. It is no one's will to be tortured forever, and no one will choose it. Everyone will be placed there against their will. Wasn't it the "rich man" in Luke 16:19-31 that seemed to express his own will against being there? He even cries out for mercy in 16:24 but there is none!
Jenyar said:
I am sorry my friend, but I think that I disagree with you here. Romans says that God is indeed sovereign and that, "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs," (Romans 9:16). It does not depend on man's will or man's actions. So it is arbitrary!
Jenyar said:
I believe in God's love. I just do not think that everything in the Bible is inspired by Him. I think that much of it is from the mind of man. The question for me is how much?
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The love that GOD gives is greater than anyone can ever imagine and is capable of. John 3:16 "GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son" That son was put to death and punished for all of our sins past, present, and future. GOD made it so that we are forgiven even before we have sinned or even before we are ever borned to sin. That is love that can't be understood by man. If you have a child, would you be willing to sentence your child to death for the punishment of someone else's sins even if that child had never committed a sin in his entire life. I can not do it. That is because I do not love the world that much. I don't even love my town that much so I can not imagine having such a great love for anyone enougth that I would sacrafice my own child, but GOD does and he did. Now that's love that can't be imagined by anyone, but GOD and that's why I am not GOD nor you. We just aren't capable of producing that much love.
pasquala said:
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M*W: Forget about producing "love." You people can't even produce a believeable god. You're preaching, and that's against forum rules.
ouch! Didn't know that talking about love could piss you off. Sorry if you think its preaching, I don't so preach this... (can't seem to find a smiley face sticking his tounge out or flipping the bird, but if I did, he would be inserted here)
Medicine Woman said:
Ummm... I disagree! You might as well close this forum down. You are free to leave this forum if you want to, of course, Medicine Woman. That way you could avoid exposing yourself to anything that you don't agree with. But, I hope you just change your mood and stay!
SetiAlpha6 said:
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M*W: "Love" doesn't piss me off. Christians piss me off. Where christians are concerned, my mood will not change, and I'm not planning to leave. Is this not a forum to express one's views? Why, then, everytime a new christian comes aboard, they start the whole repetitive cycle all over again with the same blase statements? If they wanted to learn anything, which they don't, they would read the forum archives.
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M*W: This is preaching. It is not evidence. It is not even theory. It's preaching, and preaching is against the forum rules.
Medicine Woman said:
I thought that you were a Christian once! You of all people should know very well where they are coming from and that they intend it for good and a blessing. If you show them a little grace and mercy you show yourself the same. For you were once the same as them.
I'm quite well. Thanks for asking!SetiAlpha6 said:
To your question: Your emphasis should be on appears. The problem is that there would be no discernable difference between a place where suffering is an inescapable consequence, and a place where suffering is temporary state, just by focusing on the experience. People who are perfectly miserable might be experiencing just as much of hell as someone would be if he ends up there. The only difference between the two states would be hope, and that's exactly what Jesus brought. And hope in God is practically synonymous with faith. That's why it makes a difference; depending on what we believe, we think and act differently, and reap different consequences.
The parable where Jesus explains this thought can be found in Matt. 25:31-46. People tend to fixate on the final verse without ever reading how Jesus comes to it: not by divine decree, but because of a simple lack of love. But I fear it's much easier to do what Adam and Eve did, and shift the blame.
I haven't sugar coated anything. I don't think it's wise to sugar coat hell. But put into its proper perspective, it must certainly seem sugar coated for anyone who is intent on believing that it's an evil place created by an evil God for unfortunate, unassuming and defenseless people. On the one hand, that's not the God any Jew or Christian believes in (so you'd be imagining an idol), and on the other hand, we're not as innocent as all that - no matter how insignificant we think ourselves or our actions to be on such a "grand scale". (It's an old trick to adjust the scale as to make our infraction seem statistically insignificant in comparison).
The hell of hell is that once there, it won't be a place where anyone wants to be. Isn't that what Jesus was saying? What should bother us, and what Jesus was keen to point out, is that the gate to hell is wide and the path leading there broad (Matt. 7:13) and probably paved with gold. That's why temptation is called temptation. How do we know the difference? That's where the message of Lazarus and the rich man comes in. People have the royal law: "love your neighbour as yourself, and God with your whole heart, mind and soul", which is designed to keep people from sins that lead to death. If someone won't act on that, then it's safe to say "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead" (Luk. 16:31).
The reason the rich man receives no mercy is that none is left (or as Heb. 10:26 puts it: no sacrifice for sins is left). Not because God didn't give any, but because it never mattered what God gave - it never changed his actions, and definitely not their consequences. We can only make decisions while we're alive (that's mostly what 'being alive' means!)
You're making a strange leap of logic here. That your will and actions does not influence someone hardly makes their actions arbitrary. They might seem arbitrary from your perspective, perhaps, but that doesn't make it arbitrary from theirs! God is sovereign, and his compassion comes completely at his own volition and design. That makes it significant that He also tells us on whom He will show compassion, and who will forfeit it. We cannot change God, but we can change our hearts.
Or think of it another way: if God's decision was arbitrary, there would be no religion - we would be better off doing what we like and hope we win the draw.
Given the measurements God gives, it's quite easy to see how much. Not everything in the Bible is prophecy or law - most of it is an account of how people went wrong and how God remained faithful nontheless. Once you are able to accept that God can and has shown mercy, it's just a matter of finding where it happened, reading the situation, and acting accordingly.
If you're afraid of doctrine, and how people might have twisted or created traditions for personal gain, good. Jesus had a lot to say against those who did. But if you doubt the fundamentals - God's existence and compassion, Jesus' gospel - then regard it like the scene of an accident: move along now, nothing to see here. Personally, I think you're more likely to find self-serving "religion" in places where it really does depend on yourself (because isn't that what "self-serving" means?)
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SetiAlpha6 said:
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M*W: I only wish someone had cared about me enough at that time to tell me the truth about christianity, but unwittingly, I chose only to be around those who were of like mind, and I did myself a horrible injustice by that. Yes, I've been there where they are, and that's why I won't give-up. Someday they will remember what I have written on this forum, and they will thank me. If I showed them "grace" and "mercy," that would just mean for me to leave them alone. That would just enable them to continue along in their co-dependent denial. Sometimes tough love is needed to get their attention and, hopefully, bring them back to reality.
First I want to apologize to MW. I don't usually act in such a matter to anyone. I always believe that everyone is entitled to believe whay they want and to express themselves accordingly. Forgive me for my short comings.
Secondly, I did go back and read the forum rules and I still stand by my first post. I do not believe it to be preaching.
and finally, this is what I was responding to and therefore vioced my opinion about.
Originally Posted by Saint
Do you believe God is Love as claimed by Bible?
What is the evidence to advocate this claim?
The Christians say God the Son is willing to die on cross for us, this shows his Love is the greatest!
Secondly, I did go back and read the forum rules and I still stand by my first post. I do not believe it to be preaching.
and finally, this is what I was responding to and therefore vioced my opinion about.
Originally Posted by Saint
Do you believe God is Love as claimed by Bible?
What is the evidence to advocate this claim?
The Christians say God the Son is willing to die on cross for us, this shows his Love is the greatest!