God is defined, not described.

[birch]

there is a difference between a circumstantial/temporal truth and an absolute one. the ignorance may be in getting the two confused.

whether a god exists or not is like putting the cart before the horse. there are certain aspects of existence that are undeniable. the universe is predatorial and amoral. you see it in all aspects of nature.

still, even though that is the case, there is a higher understanding or awareness on an conceptual/abstract level that it's wrong or terrible.

the question is which is true or more accurately, even though we exist in a situation that we cannot change, does this mean that these laws are all there is? is it the ultimate or absolute truth? is this design the only possibility? more than likely not.

i think people who justify evil because 'it's the way it is' instead of listening to that voice of sanity are dishonest. i think it's similar to a test. your character is tested by choices, not by what you have to or can't or cannot do. it's like that university experiment where people tortured others ignoring their sense of right and wrong. that's a poor excuse.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

A person's character is determined mainly by DNA & 2nd by input from environment. Whether created by an omnipotent god or by nature, people are what they are & they cannot be otherwise. Good or bad, right or wrong, everyone does what they can. Human nature is what it is & it is far from what I would like it to be. Those who can will attempt to influence others to do good & will try to protect the innocent but it does no good to act as if there is a choice.

<>

 

[Jan Ardena]

Let's approach this from a different angle.

One of the 10 Commandments states; "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me"
What does that mean? Are there more than One God, but some of them are False?

Maybe if you read the rest of the chapter, you may get a clue.

Can someone tell me what a "False God" is and how a person can know which God is True and which is False?

If something is false, it is not true. But it is made to seem true for deceptive purposes.


In that verse you quote, God was talking to people who were prone to worship anything they believed was God.
Those people should recognise the true God, for it was the true God that brought them out of Egypt.

Jan? You claim to natural knowledge of the One True God. You should at least be able to explain what constitutes a False God.

Where did I make this claim?

Jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Maybe if you read the rest of the chapter, you may get a clue.



If something is false, it is not true. But it is made to seem true for deceptive purposes.


In that verse you quote, God was talking to people who were prone to worship anything they believed was God.
Those people should recognise the true God, for it was the true God that brought them out of Egypt.



Where did I make this claim?

Jan.

^^^
You get a clue & try to actually learn something useful.

An omnipotent god would be in on any deception.

It says there are other gods. Period.

Ha! It brought them out of Egypt after forcing Pharaoh to refuse to let them leave. Then it took 40 years for an omnipotent god to get them where it wanted them only to have them savagely attack the people there in order to steal their land. Utter stupidity.

<>

 

[Write4U]

In short, my position is that;
"The Universe is a hierarchical dynamical unfolding of probabilistic potentials in accordance to certain deterministic mathematical rules and limitations."

The concept of a Sentient and Intentional Causality is superfluous and self-serving.
There is no God, never was, never will be, period

I'm done.

 

[birch]

everyone does what they can

blatant lie. some people don't even do what they can. some people even know they could do right but choose wrong, even when it's easy.

it does no good to act as if there is a choice.

another blatant lie. some things you do have a choice in. some people have more choices than others too.

reading between the lines of your post right after mine, you are an apologist for criminal or unethical behavior. is that blatantly and succinctly honest enough for you?

there are always people like you in the world giving covert sympathies to essentially assholes as if they are victims. it's like moral commies.

heh, which part bothered you? the truth that one's character is tested and most revealed by what we 'choose' rather than what we can or cannot do?

that is a fact, not even a fuking opinion. and yeah, that even applies to me. you don't think i would hold myself to the same standards? i'm not dishonest or weak like that. if i do wrong, i'm willing to pay for it! i don't excuse my fuking self.

then, you proceed to insinuate that there are no choices. what a fuking coward.

and each and everytime i could have done even extreme wrong, i chose not to do that even when i could. so don't you dare or anyone with your fuked up values devalue my efforts, pain, suffering and struggle to try keep my morals and anger in check considering the shit i've been through with people who just are completely selfish.

okay, bitch or asshole? whichever one you are. when i say this, i am not speaking just for me but for all victims who have fought to stay relatively good people and fight the anger of humiliation and not turn on society. it's a fuking choice! because its not easy either!

yes, the world sure isn't how i would like it to be because people like you wouldn't exist in them either in a better world.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

blatant lie. some people don't even do what they can.



another blatant lie. some things you do have a choice in. some people have more choices than others too.

^^^
You are blind & deaf.

<>

I was trying to think of a better way to say that but I see now it would not make any difference.

 

[Jan Ardena]

^^^
You get a clue & try to actually learn something useful.

An omnipotent god would be in on any deception.

It says there are other gods. Period.

Ha! It brought them out of Egypt after forcing Pharaoh to refuse to let them leave. Then it took 40 years for an omnipotent god to get them where it wanted them only to have them savagely attack the people there in order to steal their land. Utter stupidity.

<>

The question was; Can someone tell me what a "False God" is and how a person can know which God is True and which is False?

I responded to that.
Now then! What is the meaning of your inane babbling? Plus; How does it correspond to my response?

Jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The question was; Can someone tell me what a "False God" is and how a person can know which God is True and which is False?

I responded to that.
Now then! What is the meaning of your inane babbling? Plus; How does it correspond to my response?

Jan.

^^^
That does not correspond to my post. As usual for you.

<>

 

[Jan Ardena]

^^^
That does not correspond to my post. As usual for you.

<>

IOW your inane babbling has nothing to do with my response. OK.

Jan.

 

[birch]

^^^
You are blind & deaf.

<>

I was trying to think of a better way to say that but I see now it would not make any difference.

you don't have a better way because you are dishonest and can't refute the truth. if you could, you would be able to delineate how my reply was 'blind and deaf.'

bitch, it's not easy keeping your moral compass in check or doing the right thing when it's easier to do the wrong thing. this takes effort through choice.

there are victims who have to make the choice to not do the same to others as was done to them. some don't because that's easier.

no one is perfect and we all make mistakes or even have our bad moments but you have to be honest with yourself, get back on track and learn from it and it's dishonest to say that you have no responsibility or you never have choices. life puts situations in your life daily that require choices: figuratively, literally, and morally. sociopaths don't put in that effort because it's easier not to.

i've known victims that cry it out and have to swallow their pride and hurt as well as made a choice to do the right thing or not make the same choices as those who hurt them as well as hold themselves back from revenge. it is very hard to do. they came from abusive backgrounds just like me. bitch, i've been alone all my life and not only did i have to be a parent to my own parents but to myself. i had no one in this life that i could trust. i have had to struggle with my conscience and at times hold myself back from doing things that would have been easier and even gotten away with it but i had to remind myself that is not right. i had to make the decision to be a better human being. i've even helped people who were assholes to me or didn't even deserve it and these were situations i had to reflect and let it go.

bitch, your equating those who struggle and put in the effort to listen to their conscience to do the right thing with those who also damn well know right from wrong (that's why they cover their tracks to hide it) but choose to do the most selfish regardless if it hurts others is a heinous and unfair equivalence.

bitch, your equivalence is as stupid as insinuating a person who puts in the effort to eat right is the same as someone who makes bad health choices and insinuating they didn't have a choice.

i'm not going to let you or anyone preach that bullshit and will call it out when i read or hear that shit.

 

[Jan Ardena]

As for demonstrating the difference, Jan, alas I am not physically next to you to provide such that does not require you to read.

So you can't demonstrate it (no surprise there then). It is all in your head.

You real position is due to a combination of your thoughts, and actions. Not just by your thoughts.

There is no God, as far as you are aware, meaning God does not currently exist.
Unless of course God does currently exist, in which case you couldn't be an atheist.

But if you still feel you must troll for an actual demonstration, then the simplest thing would be for you to ask people to respond to a simple question: "do you (a) believe that God exists/Is, (b) believe that God does not exist/Isn't, or (c) neither?"
Theists will respond with A, strong atheists with B, weak atheists with C.
Voila.

I don't know whether or not unicorns actually exist, but they don't actually exist, as far as I'm aware. That is exactly the same as your position regarding God.

Get over it!

Jan.

 

[Write4U]

@ birch,

Choosing right or wrong does not depend on the existence of a God. In fact zealous belief in a God makes doing wrong a negotiable
choice. Ask how many crimes have been committed in the name of God. In fact ask how many crimes have been committed or ordered by those who teach belief in God.

Good or Evil has NOTHING to do with God . It is human opportunistic nature, theist or atheist, which is the cause of good and evil.

Intelligence without Wisdom is terribly dangerous to everything it gets involved with.

Human Intelligence is the ability to create, Wisdom is the ability to create selectively and benignly..

 

[Sarkus]

So you can't demonstrate it (no surprise there then). It is all in your head.

It is also writ large over every post I make on the matter. That is very much a demonstration. If you don't want to accept that then the ignorance is yours.

You real position is due to a combination of your thoughts, and actions. Not just by your thoughts.

No, my real position is intellectual. The practical can only limit how the intellect manifests.

There is no God, as far as you are aware, meaning God does not currently exist.

First, I am not aware whether there is a God or no God - I have no knowledge of what awareness would be like, and it may be that I am aware of God but just don't know it. Thus I can not say that there is no God as far as I am aware. I have explained that to you before, I am sure, but like most things you don't understand or like you just choose to ignore it.
Second, even if I concluded that I was not aware that there is no God, that does not mean that I could say that God does not currently exist. At best I could only say that I was not aware that God exists, but that God may very well do so.

Unless of course God does currently exist, in which case you couldn't be an atheist.

I don't know if God currently exists or not, Jan. I have told you that before many times. Why do you continue to ignore what I say, and stick only to what your strawman says?

I don't know whether or not unicorns actually exist, but they don't actually exist, as far as I'm aware. That is exactly the same as your position regarding God.

No it's not. I have a reasonable idea of what unicorns are, and how they would manifest, and what awareness of unicorns would be like... pretty much like being aware of other animals. Thus I can say that I am not aware that unicorns exist.
God, on the other hand, especially as you categorise the nature of God's existence as being different from the existence of "pots and pans" (and thus also of unicorns), is not something I am aware of either existing or not existing, as I do not know what it is to be aware of God's existence or non-existence. So no, it is very much a different position.

Get over it!

You're the one struggling with understanding the other's position, Jan, and rather than listen and discuss their view to try to improve your understanding, you simply dismiss it as not being their position at all. Instead you prefer the position that your strawman obviously holds. And then you tell people to "get over it" when they try to explain their position further? FFS, Jan, you do yourself no favours in not wanting to be considered utterly dishonest and a troll.

 

[Jan Ardena]

God, on the other hand, especially as you categorise the nature of God's existence as being different from the existence of "pots and pans" (and thus also of unicorns), is not something I am aware of either existing or not existing, as I do not know what it is to be aware of God's existence or non-existence. So no, it is very much a different position.

An atheist is a person who does not believe in the existence of God.

So God either exists, or doesn't exist. Either you're aware of God, or you're not.

If you don't know whether or not God exists, then it means God does not currently exist as far as you're aware.

Jan.

 

[James R]

If you don't know whether or not God exists, then it means God does not currently exist as far as you're aware.

There are 4 options:

1. God Is, and I believe in God.
2. There is no God, but I believe in God.
3. God Is, but I don't believe in God.
4. There is no God, and I don't believe in God.

Do you accept that all 4 options are logical possibilities?

Also, do you, or do you not, accept that God's existence or non-existence is independent of what people believe about God?

 

[James R]

There is no God, as far as you are aware, meaning God does not currently exist.

Your position reminds me of Peter Pan, in which Tinkerbell the fairy needs children to believe in her in order for her to keep existing.

Is your God like Tinkerbell?

 

[Jan Ardena]

1. God Is, and I believe in God.
2. There is no God, but I believe in God.
3. God Is, but I don't believe in God.
4. There is no God, and I don't believe in God.

Do you accept that all 4 options are logical possibilities?

No.

If "God Is", there can not be no God.

It cannot be known that there is "no God".

Also, do you, or do you not, accept that God's existence or non-existence is independent of what people believe about God?

That would depend on what you mean by existence.

What does the term "God Is", mean to you?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Your position reminds me of Peter Pan, in which Tinkerbell the fairy needs children to believe in her in order for her to keep existing.

Is your God like Tinkerbell?

I don't get the point.

Jan.

 

[James R]

If "God Is", there can not be no God.

1. God Is, and I believe in God.
2. There is no God, but I believe in God.
3. God Is, but I don't believe in God.
4. There is no God, and I don't believe in God.

Are you saying that you don't believe that options 2 and 4 are logically possible, then?

It cannot be known that there is "no God".

Let's not muddy the waters by discussion what we do or don't know. Let's concentrate on what is/is not and what we believe.

That would depend on what you mean by existence.

I don't get the point.

What I'm asking you is whether I can conjure God into existence just by believing in him, and whether I can make him disappear by not believing.

In Peter Pan, if the children stop believing in Tinkerbell, then Tinkerbell will vanish/die. Is this how it works with God?