God is defined, not described.

[Jan Ardena]

Because it matches the criteria Sarkus laid out.

How so?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

No the word atheist is not loaded or saddled with baggage, the word theist is loaded and saddled with baggage and most of it is garbage.

Ok.

Now do you understand my question?

No.

jan.

 

[Thomas Cranmer]

The fool says in his heart, there is no God.

That sounds like nonsense to me.
Similarly "A joker says in his liver, there is a Spiderman" is also nonsense.

 

[Write4U]

Sarkus said: ↑
Right, for the purposes of this snippet of discussion, Jan, let us assume that we both agree that "atheist" does indeed have the implication that God exists...

With due respect for your philosophical generosity, IMO, this example cannot be used, even for purpose of discussion.
If I say, "I am an afairyist", does that have an implication that fairies do exist?

OTOH, if I say I am not religious, it does imply that religions do exist. But belief if a god is not a practice, it is a statement of existence of a super-natural being who can perform all kinds of "magical tricks", just like fairies..


I am proud to say I am an atheist. As Dave says, it is an entirely "rational" term.

If the existence of one God could be true, then the existence of all Gods could be true, but then it becomes a kind of a selective thing doesn't it?

As Carlin so clearly demonstrated in this exchange of Q and A.

Q: do you believe in God?
A: no
Q: poof =-----------> you're dead.

Q: do you believe in God?
A: yes
Q: do you believe in my God?
A: no
Q: Poof =----------> you're dead.

Q: my God has a bigger (gun) than your God.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The fool doesn't decide for himself, there is no God. The fool says in his heart, there is no God.

jan.

^^^
Spoken like a true con artist.

<>

 

[Sarkus]

Then it is your view, as well.

My response was to this question: what word would you use to describe someone who doesn't hold the belief that God exists...

Are you disagreeing with me?

If you don't listen and respond to the entire question, which comes complete with conditions, and only respond to the first part, then your answer is as useful as saying "yes" to the question "do you believe the earth rotates around the sun, a flat disk of fire in the sky?"

I don't know what you mean by ''saddled with the baggage of any implication''.

Then let me rephrase:
what word would you use to describe someone who doesn't hold the belief that God exists/Is, but a word which is not defined in a way that includes the implication that God exists/Is?

It sounds as if the word ''atheist'' is loaded.

It very much is, through the definition you are insisting upon but which, for the purposes of this snippet, I am running with.

I'm afraid you're going to have to unpack this before I respond, as I don't understand fully, what you're getting at.

It's really quite simple, Jan: I am looking for you to provide a word that describes people who don't believe that God exists but is also a word that does not come loaded with the implication that God exists.
We have agreed, for the this snippet, that "atheist" is not such a word. So please can you provide one?

 

[Sarkus]

With due respect for your philosophical generosity, IMO, this example cannot be used, even for purpose of discussion.
If I say, "I am an afairyist", does that have an implication that fairies do exist?

This stems from Jan's insistence, across at least two threads now, that "atheism" is defined as "without God", with "without" only being able to be used if that thing actually exists. So if "afairyist" was defined as someone who is "without fairies" then this would imply that fairies exist - per the definition that Jan is trying to insist upon for "atheism".

However, atheists self-identify with the meaning of "atheism" that is simply "does not hold the belief that God (or gods) exists" with no implication therein that God does exist.

So I am trying to get Jan to propose a term that equates to the way that atheists self-identify, given that he is refusing to listen to what atheist say and instead applies the choice of definition he wants to their label.

 

[Write4U]

@ Jan,

afairyist, Noun
afairyist (plural afairyists)

1. (very rare, humorous) A person who does not believe in fairies.

Usage notes[edit]

• Used in arguments against the existence of God, to make comparisons with atheist.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/afairyist

Jan, do you believe in fairies? If you don't, can we call you an "afairyist" ? It's a defined dictionary term.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

@ Jan,
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/afairyist

Jan, do you believe in fairies? If you don't, can we call you an "afairyist" ?

^^^
And, again, IF Jan is without fairies, fairies must exist.

<>

 

[Write4U]

^^^
And, again, IF Jan is without fairies, fairies must exist.

There is that to consider.............
Hmmm, if they all look like the pic above, I could live with that.....

 

[Jan Ardena]

Sarkus

''Antitheist''

jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Sarkus

''Antitheist''

jan.

^^^
No, that does not fit.

<>

 

[Jan Ardena]

^^^
No, that does not fit.

<>

Why?

jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Why?

jan.

^^^
An antitheist is someone who is against religion even for other people. That fits some nonbelievers yet some nonbelievers are much more tolerant of religion.
I pointed that out in the thread that was closed. Do you not remember?

<>

 

[Jan Ardena]

Here are a few dic-defs...


also anti-theist, "one opposed to belief in the existence of a god," 1813;see anti- + theist. Related: Antitheistic.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines antitheist as "One opposed to belief in the existence of a god".

Actively opposes a belief in gods of any sort and to institutions built around belief in a deity.

Antitheism, also known pejoratively as "militant atheism" (despite having nothing to do with militancy) is the belief that theism and religion are harmful to society and people, and that even if theistic beliefs were true, they would be undesirable.

a person opposed to belief in god or gods

Opposed to belief in the existence of a god or gods.
‘I'm not so much atheist as antitheist’

jan.

 

[Write4U]

Antitheism
Antitheism (sometimes anti-theism) is active opposition to theism. The term has had a range of applications; in secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to organized religion or to the belief in any deity, while in a theistic context, it sometimes refers to opposition to a specific god or gods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism

Personally I don't give a hoot if you are a theist. Just don't come knocking on my door and tell me you came to save me, by bringing God into my life. I'll immediately turn to this little YouTube clip by George Carlin and invite them to come watch which me.

 

[Sarkus]

Why?

"Anti-theist" was coined mid 19th century to describe those who consider religion dangerous and harmful. This is thus not a necessity of those who simply do not have the belief the God exists/Is. Thus it is not an apropriate label. Furthermore it could well describe people who believe in God but consider organised religion dangerous and harmful. Therefore hardly a label that encapsulates "does not hold belief that God(/s) exist".

Care to try again, Jan?

 

[Sarkus]

Here are a few dic-defs...


also anti-theist, "one opposed to belief in the existence of a god," 1813;see anti- + theist. Related: Antitheistic.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines antitheist as "One opposed to belief in the existence of a god".

Actively opposes a belief in gods of any sort and to institutions built around belief in a deity.

Antitheism, also known pejoratively as "militant atheism" (despite having nothing to do with militancy) is the belief that theism and religion are harmful to society and people, and that even if theistic beliefs were true, they would be undesirable.

a person opposed to belief in god or gods

Opposed to belief in the existence of a god or gods.
‘I'm not so much atheist as antitheist’

So if you knew all this, why did you post it as a suggested label for those who simply do not have the belief that God exists while not implying in any way that God does exist?

If you know the answer you're about to give is wrong, why give it?

 

[Jan Ardena]

"Anti-theist" was coined mid 19th century to describe those who consider religion dangerous and harmful. This is thus not a necessity of those who simply do not have the belief the God exists/Is. Thus it is not an apropriate label. Furthermore it could well describe people who believe in God but consider organised religion dangerous and harmful. Therefore hardly a label that encapsulates "does not hold belief that God(/s) exist".

Care to try again, Jan?

Did you not see the definitions I posted?

How can a theist be opposed to God?

jan.

 

[Write4U]

Antitheism, also known pejoratively as "militant

atheism" (despite having nothing to do with

militancy) is the belief that theism and religion are harmful to society and people, and that even if theistic beliefs were true, they would be undesirable.

I bet you like that term Militant (despite having nothing to do with militancy
I like this much better. It's shorter.

Atheism

is, in the broadest sense, the absence of

belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.