God, inside realiy or outside reality.

Enmos

Enmos

Valued Senior Member
God either exists inside realiy or outside reality.

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If God 'exists' outside reality he simply does not exist.
Definition of reality:
re·al·i·ty
–noun, plural -ties for 3, 5–7.
1. the state or quality of being real.
2. resemblance to what is real.
3. a real thing or fact.
4. real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5. Philosophy.
a. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
6. something that is real.
7. something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reality

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If God exists inside reality he exists inside the universe as the universe equates reality. Because the universe by definition contains all that is real, there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist or have been "created".

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This either means that:
- God came into existence together with the universe, or
- God came into existence later on in the universe.

In either case this means God couldnt have created the universe.

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Lets look at the statement that 'God came into existence together with the universe'.
This actually cant be true because of:
From The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins
"a deity capable of engineering all the organised complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, . . . must already have been vastly complex in the first place . . ."
He calls this "postulating organised complexity without offering an explanation."

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So God must have come into existence after the universe came into existence.
You could say that God has been created by another God-like being, but this would be circular reasoning.
The only other explanation i can think of is that God must have evolved from 'lesser' beings.
If this is true then there is a race of Gods somewhere.
Alternatively, God is the sole survivor of the God-race. Which would mean Gods race is not immortal.

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So IF God exists he did not create the universe, he was mortal and most probably not the only one of his species.
It starts to sound like God may have been an 'alien'.

Either that or he doesnt exist at all.

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What are your thoughts on the ideas i presented above ?

Edit: Crap, i screwed up the title... :shrug:
 
God exists outside of reality because God is the source of reality, and thus is the only thing that actually exists and is real...so problem solved
 
"You bit him... Under his shorts".
It's all happiness anyway, doesn't matter if he's real or not.
 
A well thought out account, thanks for that. I do see a problem however; this idea of what lies beyond what's "real" exists regardless of whether a God is introduced or not. For example, we commonly accept the finding that the universe (what you've equated with reality) is expanding. Well okay...expanding into what? :)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
 
Celpha Fiael said:
A well thought out account, thanks for that. I do see a problem however; this idea of what lies beyond what's "real" exists regardless of whether a God is introduced or not. For example, we commonly accept the finding that the universe (what you've equated with reality) is expanding. Well okay...expanding into what? :)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...

Into nothingness, beyond the universe there is nothing. There cant be something beyond the universe because by definition the universe is all there is. Like i said in the OP:
"Because the universe by definition contains all that is real, there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist or have been "created"."
 
Enmos said:
So you are saying God doesnt exist... interesting.
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying the exact opposite, it must your atheistic faith blinding you again...you see God is the source of reality, and thus the only thing that exists, so reality doesn't exist as we know it...
 
Enmos said:
Into nothingness, beyond the universe there is nothing. There cant be something beyond the universe because by definition the universe is all there is. Like i said in the OP:
"Because the universe by definition contains all that is real, there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist or have been "created"."
Click to expand...

But if simply for conceptual purposes, we must imagine the universe to have some sort of imaginary boundary if we are to take this to be true; indeed, for something to expand, it must have boundaries to begin with. So even if you are right, this "external reality" must exist, if only in our imaginations, in order for the thought not to be counter-intuitive.

My point is that the same is easily done by the theist concerning a God who fits much more seamlessly into the scenario, because he is pure concept (I won't go as far as to say "imaginary" though I am tempted to) to begin with. They simply will say something like VitalOne has said, and as you can see, the problem is at once solved for them. I think we would both agree that such an "answer" is at best unsatisfying, and at worst lazy and potentially wrong. But your concern is not solely one of just theologians, it's also one that physicists and cosmologists are struggling to find solid answers to. I think it is safe to say that science will get ever closer to shedding more light on this subject, but until then, this critique doesn't have the argumentative leverage I think you--as well as I--wish it did.
 
Celpha Fiael said:
But if simply for conceptual purposes, we must imagine the universe to have some sort of imaginary boundary if we are to take this to be true; indeed, for something to expand, it must have boundaries to begin with. So even if you are right, this "external reality" must exist, if only in our imaginations, in order for the thought not to be counter-intuitive.

My point is that the same is easily done by the theist concerning a God who fits much more seamlessly into the scenario, because he is pure concept (I won't go as far as to say "imaginary" though I am tempted to) to begin with. They simply will say something like VitalOne has said, and as you can see, the problem is at once solved for them. I think we would both agree that such an "answer" is at best unsatisfying, and at worst lazy and potentially wrong. But your concern is not solely one of just theologians, it's also one that physicists and cosmologists are struggling to find solid answers to. I think it is safe to say that science will get ever closer to shedding more light on this subject, but until then, this critique doesn't have the argumentative leverage I think you--as well as I--wish it did.
Click to expand...

You are probably right. But is far as VitalOnes comment is concerned, it contradicts itself in multiple ways.
 
Celpha Fiael said:
Well of course, what about the thought of God doesn't? ;)
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Thats actually the whole point, in order to belief in God you must ignore the contradiction. That is irrational, i just dont understand why people choose to delude themselves.
Its like they dont want to see it.
 
Enmos said:
Thats actually the whole point, in order to belief in God you must ignore the contradiction. That is irrational, i just dont understand why people choose to delude themselves.
Its like they dont want to see it.
Click to expand...

I think you're exactly right, they don't want to see it. I'm a testament to this, I used to believe fervently and devoutly in the Christian God myself. Being a seeker of what is true, I decided it would only be fair for me to honestly examine my beliefs and rid them of contradiction. The result of that is surely apparent to you; the beliefs could not stand up to my intellectual honesty. That's not to say I couldn't come up with some surreptitious explanation for something in question that also incorporated my ideas of God, but they were at best flimsy and at worst downright inconsistent. It is strongly a matter of comfort for them, it takes guts to question and shed an entire belief system. My empathy and encouragement goes out to any who are in the process.
 
Enmos said:
This either means that:
- God came into existence together with the universe, or
- God came into existence later on in the universe.
Click to expand...
An alternative you've missed....

God is the universe.

i.e. God is a personification of the universe.
A number of people state (with confidence, it must be said, and little else) that God is "omniscient", "omnipotent" and "eternal" - which can also be argued for the universe, for reality.

Just a thought.
 
Sarkus said:
An alternative you've missed....

God is the universe.

i.e. God is a personification of the universe.
A number of people state (with confidence, it must be said, and little else) that God is "omniscient", "omnipotent" and "eternal" - which can also be argued for the universe, for reality.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

If God is the universe, then there is no God and no point of using the word God, which is why pantheism is disgusting...
 
Enmos said:
So what are you saying ?
Click to expand...

I'm saying the world is an illusion, the only thing that isn't an illusion is God, because God is only thing that exists, the basis of reality, the origin of all, the source of all, all emanates from God, who is one without a second...just as in a dream, the dream world is an illusion, having no actual existence, the source of the dream, the origin of the dream, etc...is the only thing that really exists...
 
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