God for body, not for car.

Fraggle has a valid statement in that. Ultimately the process leads to the release of dopamine, thus the euporia some people experience during prayer. Other things are more difficult to explain and often amaze MD's and nurses who see the phenomena of recouperation after prayer. Placebo effect is very possible, still, as our individual differences that find us clinging to a theistic belief or atheistic belief continue on, we have no means of proving absolutely that one or the other is true. What one of us sees as evidence in favor of a deity another sees as evidence that ther is no deity.
 
I'm glad your Granny is still alive. Something must have gone right there.


Fundamentalism enters all religions, atheist or theist. It is generally built upon the fundamentals of the teacher, more than the foundations of the original source of the teachings. Sometimes God intervenes to supply some corrections to what someone taught and that intervention may be as simple as refusing to do anything at all. The foundations of a religiion may be very valid, but the fundamentals are very often misgivings. Science is supposed to expose the errors, but is often greeted by blind rhetoric from both camps.

God was teaching you both a lesson. Your dad about how He really works. You wer being taught to rely on His teaching not your dad's handed down fundamental errors. Whether you want to admit it or not, He still hangs around you. Otherwise why would you still be seeking an answer or others' thoughts about a God subject?

Be glad He's still there. That really is a good sign :)

You asked for "thoughts." You responded to mine. I responded to your rebuttal. I'm venturing you are a pretty good fellow and you certainly aren't finding insults from me; just compassion and my take froim a theist's perspective on a God query in the OPost.

I am not on a query for truth. My current vision is this -

13.7 billion years ago, something happened. For it came the stuff that makes me, the earth, the cosmos and my laptop. After 13.7 billion years, a tiny part of that stuff has come together, through processes we no understand fairly well, and formed me - a sentient part of the universe. I have a few decades in this state before my sentience is lost forever and my stuff reused for a very long span of time. In this span of time I am put in a strange situation - I am on a planet, it is bathed by a yellow star halfway through its life. My ancestors on this planet go back about 3 billion years and the first of them visible with the naked eye are about half a billion years old. From their, a elaborate pinball-like mechanism has given this planet that which few planets, even those with life, are likely to recieve - a superspecies, a ruler of the planet and an explorer of the cosmos - a local God species, if you will.

In just 200,000 years, our ancestors have jumped from leaving their footprints in african grasslands to leaving them on another celestial body. They have changed from using fire and making stone tools and hunting animals to using the power of the stuff of the universe, manipulating atoms and control the very genes of other animals. We have become a superspecies.

And I, a tiny part of this stuff, was formed as a member of this superspecies. I am placed in a corner of the world, an interesting place at an interesting time - with values, ideas and lifestyles changing, technology, knowledge and our power increasing and being in a state of middle ground between a infant tecnophile superspecies and an omnipotent god species. In this amazing situation I am put - without a map, without a guideline, without any measurements. Flung into this world, I seek that which my genes force me to - patterns and information. The things that kept our forefather alive now helps us reach out into the stars. And so I am learn - about out history, about who we are, what do we do and why do we do it. About what things are, how they work, why they work the way they do and how to use them. And also about what we must do, how we must do it, where we can except to go from here and what I must do in it. My instincts as a member of a social-pack species also coerce me to take personal interest in myself - to better myself, to understand and develop myself and other closer members of my species and other fellow members I share this planet with. Those instincts form the basis of my life, of the system in which I live, of culture and civilization - and accordingly I chose and try and better my chosen areas of the endeavors of my species. And this is where I am headed.

There is no divine plan to this things, there is no personal though, no individual significance. My only importance is how much I can contribute to the works of my species and the civilization it has created. This vision is not one of heroic significance, but of mechanical humility - I am but a clog in a great machine, the result of processes, the outcome of events - but with my sentience I have will and capacity to decide and change things - that is the only thing that seperates me from a rock on mars or a solar flare. But that tiny difference allows my species to reshapen the world in a tiny pocket of life, feed by a star as the rest of space where no such star exist falls into greater etrophy. In this great machince of life and sentience, I do my job, my part as that which I am - a part of a great process that has and will change the course of this corner of the universe.

And hence I learn and understand, work and act the way I do.
 
I am not on a query for truth. My current vision is this -

13.7 billion years ago, something happened. For it came the stuff that makes me, the earth, the cosmos and my laptop. After 13.7 billion years, a tiny part of that stuff has come together, through processes we no understand fairly well, and formed me - a sentient part of the universe. I have a few decades in this state before my sentience is lost forever and my stuff reused for a very long span of time. In this span of time I am put in a strange situation - I am on a planet, it is bathed by a yellow star halfway through its life. My ancestors on this planet go back about 3 billion years and the first of them visible with the naked eye are about half a billion years old. From their, a elaborate pinball-like mechanism has given this planet that which few planets, even those with life, are likely to recieve - a superspecies, a ruler of the planet and an explorer of the cosmos - a local God species, if you will.

In just 200,000 years, our ancestors have jumped from leaving their footprints in african grasslands to leaving them on another celestial body. They have changed from using fire and making stone tools and hunting animals to using the power of the stuff of the universe, manipulating atoms and control the very genes of other animals. We have become a superspecies.

And I, a tiny part of this stuff, was formed as a member of this superspecies. I am placed in a corner of the world, an interesting place at an interesting time - with values, ideas and lifestyles changing, technology, knowledge and our power increasing and being in a state of middle ground between a infant tecnophile superspecies and an omnipotent god species. In this amazing situation I am put - without a map, without a guideline, without any measurements. Flung into this world, I seek that which my genes force me to - patterns and information. The things that kept our forefather alive now helps us reach out into the stars. And so I am learn - about out history, about who we are, what do we do and why do we do it. About what things are, how they work, why they work the way they do and how to use them. And also about what we must do, how we must do it, where we can except to go from here and what I must do in it. My instincts as a member of a social-pack species also coerce me to take personal interest in myself - to better myself, to understand and develop myself and other closer members of my species and other fellow members I share this planet with. Those instincts form the basis of my life, of the system in which I live, of culture and civilization - and accordingly I chose and try and better my chosen areas of the endeavors of my species. And this is where I am headed.

There is no divine plan to this things, there is no personal though, no individual significance. My only importance is how much I can contribute to the works of my species and the civilization it has created. This vision is not one of heroic significance, but of mechanical humility - I am but a clog in a great machine, the result of processes, the outcome of events - but with my sentience I have will and capacity to decide and change things - that is the only thing that seperates me from a rock on mars or a solar flare. But that tiny difference allows my species to reshapen the world in a tiny pocket of life, feed by a star as the rest of space where no such star exist falls into greater etrophy. In this great machince of life and sentience, I do my job, my part as that which I am - a part of a great process that has and will change the course of this corner of the universe.

And hence I learn and understand, work and act the way I do.

The fact is no matter how powerful we are we failed as society. We made extremely complex system which would fall apart sooner or later if we don't solve energy crisis. Also, there is something to be mentioned how high-tech addicted high-tech psychos we have become. I just read an article where an Chinese removed kidney from his body and sold it for 3000 US dollars just to buy Iphone 4. Science and Technology is a good when it comes to provide a better health, but it's destroying society as well when it comes cell phones, Iphones, androids-that should be stopped instantly-we don't need that kind of life, and it all started with computers. Because of the high-tech people don't have time to relax, which is the most important thing in an individual's life. Humans have become artificial they don't know what nature is anymore, they only read about the nature in books. Many people will not want that kind of society anymore or science or high-tech. They constantly tell us it's for our good and health, but really it's all about selling products, people are sick of that. The success of technology also depends how much people will want to accept and buy their products, but the trend is changing slightly step by step, people don't want to buy anything what's not necessary, they all want their normal lives back.
 
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Here's an idea: Why not just pour all the elements that make up a human body into a big container, stir the stuff, and leave it at that?

Have you ever given a serious answer to someone who proves you wrong? Or is this a pathological defense mechanism?
 
@WYNN & HD,

About the query for truth part - do you guys think that there is any objective truth as some kind of amazing information about the universe that we need to know? That is the sense in which I meant that. U know, the kind the monks would talk about - meditate and search for the truth or the search for God is the search for truth or the truth will set you free and so on.

I dont know and I dont care. What I do cae about is data, observations, explainations and applications. A random piece of information, however much of "THE TRUTH" it may be is of no significance unless it is relevant to our affairs - unless it explains something, unless it demonstrates something and so on. The Truth is the sense of spirituality or mysticism, which is also the sense it is used in in religions does not fit this category. If its exists, it would be fun to know, sure - but it is not something I would devote myself by being in the "query of".

Of course, I do care about things that are true in the normal sense, as in "things that are in register with or demonstrable in context of objective reality".

Ps. I was in a bit of a rush to complete the post, I forgot to explaine what I meant by the first line.
 
The fact is no matter how powerful we are we failed as society. We made extremely complex system which would fall apart sooner or later if we don't solve energy crisis. Also, there is something to be mentioned how high-tech addicted high-tech psychos we have become. I just read an article where an Chinese removed kidney from his body and sold it for 3000 US dollars just to buy Iphone 4. Science and Technology is a good when it comes to provide a better health, but it's destroying society as well when it comes cell phones, Iphones, androids-that should be stopped instantly-we don't need that kind of life, and it all started with computers. Because of the high-tech people don't have time to relax, which is the most important thing in an individual's life. Humans have become artificial they don't know what nature is anymore, they only read about the nature in books. Many people will not want that kind of society anymore or science or high-tech. They constantly tell us it's for our good and health, but really it's all about selling products, people are sick of that. The success of technology also depends how much people will want to accept and buy their products, but the trend is changing slightly step by step, people don't want to buy anything what's not necessary, they all want their normal lives back.

Oh yes - they are the victims of future shock -
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=112441
 
Oh yes - they are the victims of future shock -
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=112441

Not to mention scientists are selfish (well everyone are selfish, it's just how much megalomanic man you become), whatever they do is that they do for themselves, however it often becomes good for the people (like dealing with health issues), but also it does very bad things against the people (like nuclear weapons, trying to control the nature and big brother cameras and satellites who watch entire planet).
I will read your post here.
 
Not to mention scientists are selfish (well everyone are selfish, it's just how much megalomanic man you become), whatever they do is that they do for themselves...

Did you get ripped off by a scientist lately? What did they do: steal your bandwidth? Did they lie about the weather? Or did they kill your engine when you turned off the ignition? Don't tell me they adulterated your water supply with chlorine! This is an outrage!!

Bad scientists! :spank:
 
i will read your post here.

ok -

i was re-reading alvin toffler's future shock[1970], the impetus being this thread -
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=112278

and there is this interesting beginning summary in the book-

"it has been observed, for example, that if the last 50,000 years of man's existence were divided into lifetimes of approximately sixty-two years each, there have been about 800 such lifetimes. Of these 800, fully 650 were spent in caves. Only during the last seventy lifetimes has it been possible to communicate effectively from one lifetime to another—as writing made it possible to do. Only during the last six lifetimes did masses of men ever see a printed word. Only during the last four has it been possible to measure time with any precision. Only in the last two has anyone anywhere used an electric motor. And the overwhelming majority of all the material goods we use in daily life today have been developed within the present, the 800th, lifetime. This 800th lifetime marks a sharp break with all past human experience because during this lifetime man's relationship to resources has reversed itself. This is most evident in the field of economic development. Within a single lifetime, agriculture, the original basis of civilization, has lost its dominance in nation after nation. Today in a dozen major countries agriculture employs fewer than 15 percent of the economically active population. In the united states, whose farms feed 200,000,000 americans plus the equivalent of another 160,000,000 people around the world, this figure is already below 6 percent and it is still shrinking rapidly.

Moreover, if agriculture is the first stage of economic development and industrialism the second, we can now see that still another stage—the third—has suddenly been reached. In about 1956 the united states became the first major power in which more than 50 percent of the non-farm labor force ceased to wear the blue collar of factory or manual labor. Blue collar workers were outnumbered by those in the socalled white-collar occupations—in retail trade, administration, communications, research, education, and other service categories. Within the same lifetime a society for the first time in human history not only threw off the yoke of agriculture, but managed within a few brief decades to throw off the yoke of manual labor as well. The world's first service economy had been born. Since then, one after another of the technologically advanced countries have moved in the same direction. Today, in those nations in which agriculture is down to the 15 percent level or below, white collars already outnumber blue in sweden, britain, belgium, canada, and the netherlands. Ten thousand years for agriculture. A century or two for industrialism.

And now, opening before us—super-industrialism. Jean fourastié, the french planner and social philosopher, has declared that "nothing will be less industrial than the civilization born of the industrial revolution." the significance of this staggering fact has yet to be digested. Perhaps u thant, secretary general of the united nations, came closest to summarizing the meaning of the shift to super-industrialism when he declared that "the central stupendous truth about developed economies today is that they can have—in anything but the shortest run—the kind and scale of resources they decide to have.... It is no longer resources that limit decisions. It is the decision that makes the resources. This is the fundamental revolutionary change—perhaps the most revolutionary man has ever known." this monumental reversal has taken place in the 800th lifetime. This lifetime is also different from all others because of the astonishing expansion of the scale and scope of change.

Clearly, there have been other lifetimes in which epochal upheavals occurred. Wars, plagues, earthquakes, and famine rocked many an earlier social order. But these shocks and upheavals were contained within the borders of one or a group of adjacent societies. It took generations, even centuries, for their impact to spread beyond these borders. In our lifetime the boundaries have burst. Today the network of social ties is so tightly woven that the consequences of contemporary events radiate instantaneously around the world. A war in vietnam alters basic political alignments in peking, moscow, and washington, touches off protests in stockholm, affects financial transactions in zurich, triggers secret diplomatic moves in algiers. Indeed, not only do contemporary events radiate instantaneously—now we can be said to be feeling the impact of all past events in a new way.

For the past is doubling back on us. We are caught in what might be called a "time skip." an event that affected only a handful of people at the time of its occurrence in the past can have large-scale consequences today. The peloponnesian war, for example, was little more than a skirmish by modern standards. While athens, sparta and several nearby citystates battled, the population of the rest of the globe remained largely unaware of and undisturbed by the war. The zapotec indians living in mexico at the time were wholly untouched by it. The ancient japanese felt none of its impact. Yet the peloponnesian war deeply altered the future course of greek history. By changing the movement of men, the geographical distribution of genes, values, and ideas, it affected later events in rome, and, through rome, all europe.

Today's europeans are to some small degree different people because that conflict occurred. In turn, in the tightly wired world of today, these europeans influence mexicans and japanese alike. Whatever trace of impact the peloponnesian war left on the genetic structure, the ideas, and the values of today's europeans is now exported by them to all parts of the world. Thus today's mexicans and japanese feel the distant, twice-removed impact of that war even though their ancestors, alive during its occurrence, did not. In this way, the events of the past, skipping as it were over generations and centuries, rise up to haunt and change us today. When we think not merely of the peloponnesian war but of the building of the great wall of china, the black plague, the battle of the bantu against the hamites—indeed, of all the events of the past—the cumulative implications of the time-skip principle take on weight. Whatever happened to some men in the past affects virtually all men today. This was not always true. In short, all history is catching up with us, and this very difference, paradoxically, underscores our break with the past.

Thus the scope of change is fundamentally altered. Across space and through time, change has a power and reach in this, the 800th lifetime, that it never did before. But the final, qualitative difference between this and all previous lifetimes is the one most easily overlooked. For we have not merely extended the scope and scale of change, we have radically altered its pace. We have in our time released a totally new social force—a stream of change so accelerated that it influences our sense of time, revolutionizes the tempo of daily life, and affects the very way we "feel" the world around us. We no longer "feel" life as men did in the past. And this is the ultimate difference, the distinction that separates the truly contemporary man from all others. For this acceleration lies behind the impermanence—the transience—that penetrates and tinctures our consciousness, radically affecting the way we relate to other people, to things, to the entire universe of ideas, art and values.

To understand what is happening to us as we move into the age of super-industrialism, we must analyze the processes of acceleration and confront the concept of transience. If acceleration is a new social force, transience is its psychological counterpart, and without an understanding of the role it plays in contemporary human behavior, all our theories of personality, all our psychology, must remain pre-modern. Psychology without the concept of transience cannot take account of precisely those phenomena that are peculiarly contemporary. By changing our relationship to the resources that surround us, by violently expanding the scope of change, and, most crucially, by accelerating its pace, we have broken irretrievably with the past. We have cut ourselves off from the old ways of thinking, of feeling, of adapting. We have set the stage for a completely new society and we are now racing toward it. This is the crux of the 800th lifetime. And it is this that calls into question man's capacity for adaptation—how will he fare in this new society? Can he adapt to its imperatives? And if not, can he alter these imperatives? Before even attempting to answer such questions, we must focus on the twin forces of acceleration and transience. We must learn how they alter the texture of existence, hammering our lives and psyches into new and unfamiliar shapes. We must understand how—and why—they confront us, for the first time, with the explosive potential of future shock."

any thoughts?
 
Did you get ripped off by a scientist lately? What did they do: steal your bandwidth? Did they lie about the weather? Or did they kill your engine when you turned off the ignition? Don't tell me they adulterated your water supply with chlorine! This is an outrage!!

Bad scientists! :spank:

LOL. Its amazing that a person is actually opposed to those who have revolutionised our knowledge, gave us amazing abilities and helped us in innumerable ways. Scientists have done more for our species than any other group of people ever in our history.
 
And you expect a serious reply to this?

Agreed. Let me play devil's advocate then -
This reply of your seems to be in the same vein as the enlightened remark you make in response to posts you dont see fit to be directly replied to. Jdawg suggests that this represents a defense mechanism against falsification of some ideas you may consider important to your self-identity, thus giving an explaination as to why to reply as you do to those posts. This further implies that you may not be willing to accept your mistakes or retract your errors, which is what his statement critiqued, rather sharply too, I must add. May I have your thoughts on his suggestion, now objectified and cerebralised by me?
 
Did you get ripped off by a scientist lately? What did they do: steal your bandwidth? Did they lie about the weather? Or did they kill your engine when you turned off the ignition? Don't tell me they adulterated your water supply with chlorine! This is an outrage!!

Bad scientists! :spank:

Not really, what I'm saying they are equally responsible as politicians for such discoveries, and let's be honest scientists as much as they have done good, they have equally done bad things as well under the profit. Vast majority of their inventions goes for the authorities which is very bad, in all that you have something for health and medicine which is good, trying to control the nature which is bad... I personally think many scientists have lost their focus and are pretty much lost, they lost ethics and moral, for example why would you want to create genetically modified virus. To research for better and more quality drugs, yeah right. Playing with these things could easily go wrong, they say they control it, just one mistake is enough. That's what I'm afraid of. It seems to me scientists don't know when to stop and this could be potentially hazardous.
Yes, I know what you're going to tell me, there is no need to fear, everything is under control, but as our systems become more and more complex there is a greater danger of making mistakes, that no group of scientists no matter how large and no matter how good they are they cannot be totally flawless.

And if something happens, scientists will say we simply didn't know, it wasn't shown in our super-computer models...
As much as I love science, I also fear it (as well as I fear high-tech) I admit this to you and everyone else.
These are all just my opinions which could easily be totally wrong, I'm not excluding that at all.
Cheers.
 
Agreed. Let me play devil's advocate then -
This reply of your seems to be in the same vein as the enlightened remark you make in response to posts you dont see fit to be directly replied to. Jdawg suggests that this represents a defense mechanism against falsification of some ideas you may consider important to your self-identity, thus giving an explaination as to why to reply as you do to those posts. This further implies that you may not be willing to accept your mistakes or retract your errors, which is what his statement critiqued, rather sharply too, I must add. May I have your thoughts on his suggestion, now objectified and cerebralised by me?

Are you enlightened? Is JDawg?

If you aren't: then why on earth should anyone automatically believe that you are right and take lessons from you?

:rolleyes:
 
Are you enlightened? Is JDawg?

Enlightenment isnt a requisite for the truth of one's information. The conformity of that information to observations of reality is.

If you aren't: then why on earth should anyone automatically believe that you are right

I didn't say he was right. I said that that is what he suggested as his personal opinion

and take lessons from you?

And that is implied where in my post?

This seems like an excellent illustration of why Jdawg is probably right. No honest, sceptical, self-doubing thoughts. No specific answer to any points made. No neutral or unemotional reply - classic symptoms of defensive humour and denailism - note that this is not an assertion, as I am not enlightened, but neither are you - hence you cant just rule out giving any reply to this [my personal opinion and observation]. Please be honest with your burden of rejoinder, this once - please?
 
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