God exists only in your mind!!!

[Vega]

Why are people so afraid to let "God" go???
... because its burned in your mind!!!,..and its been transferred from generation to generation through a series of mind programming ..yet its still only in our heads!!! and wars are still waged over it!!!,..why can't we face reality and conclude that the mathematical probablilty of finding "God",..in person is far less than finding aliens on a another world in our own galaxy !!

 

[TW Scott]

Becuase Vega, some of us realize that just becuase the chance is small doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We also realize that right now we don't have nearly the breadth of knowledge we would need to disprove God. We never will as the universe expands faster than we could ever possibly explore it. So call physical God's existance a farce is about eight hundred billion years premature.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Why are people so afraid to let "God" go???
... because its burned in your mind!!!,..and its been transferred from generation to generation through a series of mind programming ..yet its still only in our heads!!! and wars are still waged over it!!!,..why can't we face reality and conclude that the mathematical probablilty of finding "God",..in person is far less than finding aliens on a another world in our own galaxy !!

You would get rid of God because you regard theism as simply the result of "mind programming". That's only one, very distorted view of "reality". Perhaps we do not want to "let God go" because there is something of great value in the concept. Here's one answer to your question....

(Quote from "A Course in Miracles" Ch 18.8.2)

The body cannot know. And while you limit your awareness to its tiny senses, you will not see the grandeur that surrounds you. God cannot come into a body, nor can you join Him there. Limits on love will always seem to shut Him out, and keep you apart from Him. The body is a tiny fence around a little part of a glorious and complete idea. It draws a circle, infinitely small, around a very little segment of Heaven, splintered from the whole, proclaiming that within it is your kingdom, where God can enter not. Within this kingdom the ego rules, and cruelly. And to defend this little speck of dust it bids you fight against the universe. This fragment of your mind is such a tiny part of it that, could you but appreciate the whole, you would see instantly that it is like the smallest sunbeam to the sun, or like the faintest ripple on the surface of the ocean. In its amazing arrogance, this tiny sunbeam has decided it is the sun; this almost imperceptible ripple hails itself as the ocean. Think how alone and frightened is this little thought, this infinitesimal illusion, holding itself apart against the universe.

OK, it's rather flowery in it's language, but it conveys the message. We feel existentially alone, yet perhaps this aloneness is the illusion, and we can dare to believe ourselves part of the magnificence of the greater whole. It goes on...

Do not accept this little, fenced-off aspect as yourself. The sun and ocean are as nothing beside what you are. The sunbeam sparkles only in the sunlight, and the ripple dances as it rests upon the ocean. Yet in neither sun nor ocean is the power that rests in you. Would you remain within your tiny kingdom, a sorry king, a bitter ruler of all that he surveys, who looks on nothing yet who would still die to defend it? This little self is not your kingdom. Arched high above it and surrounding it with love is the glorious whole, which offers all its happiness and deep content to every part. The little aspect that you think you set apart is no exception. Love knows no bodies, and reaches to everything created like itself. Its total lack of limit is its meaning.

I see nothing attractive in the atheist worldview, and nothing that indicates it is more likely to be true than the theist's. So, what would induce anyone to become an atheist other than a mistaken belief that science has somehow disproved the existence of God?

 

[KennyJC]

I see nothing attractive in the atheist worldview, and nothing that indicates it is more likely to be true than the theist's.

I beg to differ. Embracement of rationality and true awe and respect for nature without bias is rather attractive. To simply invent fantasies to make your life more attractive is sad, and you have my sympathy.

So, what would induce anyone to become an atheist other than a mistaken belief that science has somehow disproved the existence of God?

More bullshit. Show me an atheist on this forum who thinks that science as disproved God? However, I think it's safe to say that science long ago proved many concepts within organised religion false. Common sense renders 95% of the rest false and irrational.

Also, nothing should 'induce' someone to become atheist as you would simply be atheist by default if you were rational.

 

[looking_forward]

Becuase Vega, some of us realize that just becuase the chance is small doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

So now you aknowledge the possibility of very small chances? I always hear theists point out how small the possibility of life forming randomly from a mixture of chemicals in the primoridial seas, and they use this small possibilty to disprove science's explanation for the beginning of life, but now all of a sudden you have no problem investing your faith in something unlikely. Please explain your sudden reversal.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

why can't we face reality and conclude that the mathematical probablilty of finding "God",..in person is far less than finding aliens on a another world in our own galaxy !!

Well for centuries people have worked on finding God. If you go to www.godchecker.com you will find 2850 Gods that have become extinct. So it's not for lack of trying, trouble is we keep inventing them but never finding them.

 

[scorpius]

Why are people so afraid to let "God" go???
... because its burned in your mind!!!,..and its been transferred from generation to generation through a series of mind programming ..yet its still only in our heads!!! and wars are still waged over it!!!,..why can't we face reality and conclude that the mathematical probablilty of finding "God",..in person is far less than finding aliens on a another world in our own galaxy !!

maybe some people need to be gullible enough to believe anything so they can be controled,manipulated and exploited for the good of others,stronger smarter ones,at least thats one explanation why would evolution allow it and not make everyone smart and logical...

www.atheists.org/Atheism/music.html

 

[Godless]

You would get rid of God because you regard theism as simply the result of "mind programming".

It's not mind programming, it's more like mind ignorance. The unevolved mind heard voices, hallusinatory voices were thought to be voices of god.

Jaynes was a psychology professor most noted for his book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, where he laid out his astonshing thesis that consciousness is of recent origin (three millennia ago), and replaced internal voices as the basic means of human self-control. These internal voices were what were referred to as gods, and, he claims, the predecessors of the variety of gods people worship today.

click

Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations

So it's clearly shown that "god" is only an illusion of your bicameral mentality. When chaos broke then silenced the gods men invented "consciouness" as we know it today, the gods, were silent, but in the search for these gods, men created religions, and sought to gain back the hallucinations of authorative quidance from these illusionary gods.

*The ancient Greeks took a great interest in the human psyche and especially in madness. Plato who lived in the 5th and 4th centuries BC speaks about two kinds of madness, one with a divine origin and another with a physical origin. The divine madness may create prophets, relieve the generation of impurity, inspire poets, or provoke an intense desire for beauty, according to Plato. The idea of the divine madness was firmly rooted in the Greek culture even before Plato. It also appears in the Greek tragedies, for instance in Heracles by Euripidos, from the 5th century BC. But in that tragedy madness ends in catastrophe.

The platonic ideas of a connection between madness and prophecy recur in the ancient Israel. The highly esteemed religious prophets were often regarded as mad because of their odd utterances and deviant clothes and behavior. The same conceptions later appear in the Koran in the Islamic countries. The Koran uses the word majnoon to describe mad persons as well as prophets.*click

In conclusion what we have today, in following religious texts of one denomination or another, is nothig more then following ancient hallucinations from authorative figures. i.e. Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc..

Godless

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

I beg to differ. Embracement of rationality and true awe and respect for nature without bias is rather attractive. To simply invent fantasies to make your life more attractive is sad, and you have my sympathy.

I'm glad you have "true awe and respect for nature". Sounds like you are halfway to becoming a druid? Most pioneering scientific theories & discoveries started out as what you would call "invented fantasies". Leaping from the known into the unknown is a risk... it's not for the faint hearted!

More bullshit. Show me an atheist on this forum who thinks that science as disproved God? However, I think it's safe to say that science long ago proved many concepts within organised religion false. Common sense renders 95% of the rest false and irrational.

Aren't you in danger of contradicting yourself here? If we agree that science hasn't disproved God, and the subjective evidence for God is in many people's experience, then belief in God cannot be "false and irrational". However, I can see that if you crave certainty, it is easier to dismiss it as such. The attraction of atheism it seems is the feeling of security in limiting your world to just what is certain!

Also, nothing should 'induce' someone to become atheist as you would simply be atheist by default if you were rational.

True, we are all born as weak atheists. However, many feel the need for something spiritual ('Being needs' in Maslow's hierarchy of needs). Once you can understand the concepts, you have a choice... So, is atheism an attractive worldview, or are you just one 'by default'?

 

[MarcAC]

But then... what doesn't exist in our minds?

Without mind there would be no existence - not for us anyway.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

It's not mind programming, it's more like mind ignorance. The unevolved mind heard voices, hallusinatory voices were thought to be voices of god....
...In conclusion what we have today, in following religious texts of one denomination or another, is nothig more then following ancient hallucinations from authorative figures. i.e. Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc..

Jaynes theory is not widely accepted, and he has not subjected it to peer review, prefering the popularist press. It's had some influence but there's little supportive evidence for his "bicameral mind" hypothesis or a change in our cognitive function 3000 years ago. Probably made him a bucket of money though.

Yes, schizophrenics often have hallucinations of God, and may even believe they are God. Many religious "prophets" are often outsiders to their culture, and therefore may be thought mad. Confusingly, some people (e.g. George Fox - founder of the Quakers) showed signs of mental illness as well as genuine spiritual insight. It is therefore easy to mistakenly conflate the two.

However, I think the value of a religion should judged by the effect on a person's life. If it makes them unhappy, then drop it, it's probably wrong! However, if it's a positive influence as it is in many cases, then it's obviously NOT the result of their psychopathology.

 

[perplexity]

Why are people so afraid to let "God" go???
... because its burned in your mind!!!,..and its been transferred from generation to generation through a series of mind programming ..yet its still only in our heads!!! .....

Because generation makes no sense to people without creation.

--- Ron.

 

[KennyJC]

I'm glad you have "true awe and respect for nature". Sounds like you are halfway to becoming a druid?

Having "true awe and respect for nature" doesn't make me anything... druid, theist or otherwise.

Most pioneering scientific theories & discoveries started out as what you would call "invented fantasies". Leaping from the known into the unknown is a risk... it's not for the faint hearted!

You mean scientific hypothesis which were then proved wrong one by one until there was a final conclusion supported by evidence? If a similar practice was adopted for religious beliefs, then everyone would end up agnostic at least.

Aren't you in danger of contradicting yourself here? If we agree that science hasn't disproved God, and the subjective evidence for God is in many people's experience, then belief in God cannot be "false and irrational".

I'll have to stop you there... Yes, subjective as in taking place in a persons mind, but evidence? No. Therefor false and irrational.

However, I can see that if you crave certainty, it is easier to dismiss it as such.

I don't crave certainty as such, I just don't believe in things which are clearly bullshit - like religion, astrology, ghosts, the soul, heaven, hell, prayer um... ghosts... you get my point.

The attraction of atheism it seems is the feeling of security in limiting your world to just what is certain!

I don't see a problem with 'limiting' my world to be without superstition?

True, we are all born as weak atheists. However, many feel the need for something spiritual ('Being needs' in Maslow's hierarchy of needs). Once you can understand the concepts, you have a choice... So, is atheism an attractive worldview, or are you just one 'by default'?

I would have to be atheist by default once I got old enough to realize that what I was being indoctrinated to had no place in reality. I once believed a man came back from the dead and ascended up to heaven because it was easy to remember and pretty... Although once I learned about logic this instantly disappeared... Not because it was an attractive worldview, but because there was no reason to believe a lie.

 

[perplexity]

I don't crave certainty as such, I just don't believe in things which are clearly bullshit - like religion, astrology, ghosts, the soul, heaven, hell, prayer um... ghosts... you get my point.

Which point was that?

I there a particular reason why what you believe should be of any concern to anybody else?

-- Ron.

 

[KennyJC]

Which point was that?

Isn't it obvious? If people have so many irrational superstitious beliefs, they can't all be true (although none of them are).

I there a particular reason why what you believe should be of any concern to anybody else?

Only religious moderates will say that anybody can believe what ever crap they want. Which is dangerous since they give a safety cushion to protect the fundamentalists. If we simply laid back and respected everyones beliefs - no matter how irrational - we would be in shit street and sent back to the dark ages with years of progressive secularism down the drain.

 

[Godless]

Jaynes theory is not widely accepted, and he has not subjected it to peer review, prefering the popularist press.

Stop right there!! with the above, you truly show your damn ignorance.

HE'S DEAD DUMBASS!!

Try reading the book, the only book he wrote, before jumping into conclusions you know nothing about.

*You must really read Jaynes' book to appreciate the evidence he has collected in support of his hypothesis. In the present article, J. Hamilton has found additional support for Jaynes' theory. His abstract follows:

"When a system for communicating with nonverbal, quadriplegic, institutionalized residents was developed, it was discovered that many were experiencing auditory hallucinations. Nine cases are presented in this study. The 'voices' described have many similar characteristics, the primary one being that they give authoritarian commands that tell the residents how to behave and to which the residents feel compelled to respond. Both the relationship of this phenomenon to the theoretical work of Julian Jaynes and its effect on the lives of the residents are discussed."

click

**It doesn't matter whether or not the scientific community accepted the ideas in "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind." Constructing new dogma is not the goal of a good scientific treatise. Presenting new models and theories about our world is. Presenting supporting rationale and evidence is even better.
Jaynes turned archaeological sociology on its head when he proposed his stunning new explanation for the rise and fall of ancient cultures. Based on exhaustive research in multiple disciplines, Jaynes' concept was that ancient cultures were centered around religious practice that included actually hearing the voices of their gods, which Jaynes asserts originated in their own brains. The premise was grounded in bedrock brain research, but it startled many readers.click
*** In 1976, Julian Jaynes published his most famous and monumental work, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. The Origin of Consciousness... is an enormous text, virtually encyclopedic in scope. It can be very technical at times and requires a preliminary superficial knowledge or at least familiarity with the subjects of Philosophy, psychology, Linguistics, Anthropology, and Religion, all of which Jaynes communicates with authority and lucidity. Jaynes presents what on the surface looks like a radical and eccentric theory regarding the origin of consciousness, yet if one follows the book to conclusion sufficiently assimilating the vast amount of evidence presented, one cannot help but feel that it makes logical sense.click

Well there, i got you Three different views from three different sources, independent of Jaynes. Ok! :m:


Godless

 

[perplexity]

Only religious moderates will say that anybody can believe what ever crap they want. Which is dangerous since they give a safety cushion to protect the fundamentalists. If we simply laid back and respected everyones beliefs - no matter how irrational - we would be in shit street and sent back to the dark ages with years of progressive secularism down the drain.

That seems to imply that your concern makes a difference to something, like somebody would turn up here to seek your advice on the issue, which had not been my impression of the circumstance.

Whose mind did you change?

Does there happen to be a testimony from anybody at all to that effect, that you made a difference?

--- Ron.

 

[the preacher]

he does'nt want to change any bodies mind, he's wants people to wake up and change their own, atheism is the one only sensible way of life, it has no church, or gods, just humanity, being at it's best.
people have to change their own minds, but they first have to wake up. dont they.

---noR.

 

[KennyJC]

That seems to imply that your concern makes a difference to something, like somebody would turn up here to seek your advice on the issue, which had not been my impression of the circumstance.

It is a collective thing that will slowly change society. The less religious a society, the further secularism can go. At least I as a single person make a difference in that I am not contributing to the cause of religious dogma and the hope that in my time I could actually make a few people think twice about what they have been indoctrinated to.

Why do you think there is growing concern about the role religion plays in the world? And why do you think organisations, intelligent people and regular people like me are trying to speak out against it?

Like I said, if collectively, everyone does nothing, then secularism wouldn't be where it is now, and we would still be burning heretics. It would be a travesty.

 

[perplexity]

Why do you think there is growing concern about the role religion plays in the world? And why do you think organisations, intelligent people and regular people like me are trying to speak out against it?

I don't have that impression, of a growing concern.

Do you have some statistical data to verify the notion?

People speak out to indulge themselves. It makes them feel good. I used to do it myself, involved with all sorts of campaigns and pressure group activities, but with the time to be spent over again I would put it to better use.

It is tricky enough to cope with immediate issues, friends business and familly, without the woes of the rest of the World to worry for.

--- Ron.