god as a scientific concept

[superluminal]

Cris,

Theists claim god is real and has a profound affect on our universe. To theists it is not a speculation. Imagine if you will Lori, AB, lawdog, or any other theists here saying "Hmm... I think that maybe there's a god and that maybe he..." No, I don't think so.

And what do you mean by scientifically disproven? If you mean that the laws of physics are sufficient for explaining all known phenomena,...

Yes.

...then can you take that to claim that a god did not create the laws of physics?

No. If only theists would stop there. Physics - good and natural, god created physics then left it alone - maybe.

It is usually very unsafe to claim that science has disproven anything,...

I understand this common stance. However, some things that are overwhelmingly shown to be not true (nice phrasing, huh?) can be said to be disproven.

Luminiferous ether - disproven
Planetary epicycles - disproven
Heritability of acquired traits - disproven
Matter is infinitely divisible - disproven
Radiation travels infinetly fast - disproven
and so on.

that is not its purpose, but rather science is about establishing knowledge,...

Yes.

...and then most of what it discovers is considered theory.

I sense a misunderstanding of theory in your statement, as in it's ony a theory.

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

A theory as commonly understood is a good speculation. A accepted theory as scientifically intended is a model that accurately represents nature.

So, saying god created the universe (as theists do) but it is impossible to access god in any way but through personal epiphany (as theists do) puts that speculation on the same footing with the speculation on Bigfoot or the Lock Ness monster. In fact, less solid footing.

Now, does god exist? You say he does? How do we know this? His works you say?

Now, you've made some testable claim (as already stated) for god. Does this not then allow for tests to show that the god "speculation" is not true?

 

[KennyJC]

There is no Science in "God".

 

[superluminal]

Did anyone say there was?

 

[Cris]

super,

I sense a misunderstanding of theory in your statement, as in it's ony a theory.

No, I don't make that mistake. I was trying to convey that science doesn't offer proofs.

Theists claim god is real and has a profound affect on our universe. To theists it is not a speculation.

Yet objectively it is speculation whatever their opionions.

I guess my main point here is to not rule out any scenario that we cannot confirm. While the concept of gods lacks meaningful credibility, there does remain many mysteries that we have yet to understand. For example given enough time could mankind evolve into a godlike being, take control of time and go back and create the universe?

 

[superluminal]

Well, if we're going to speculate, I suppose almost anything is possible. However, the fate of humanity turns on the moment, and I would rather have it turn towards rationalism and unity than superstition and division. And that is all that theism offers (local abberations of kindness and generosity not withstanding).

Let us then say that it is possible that a god exists, but has yet to show himself in any way other than personal epiphany. The universe so far seems to be nicely natural, thank you very much.

 

[Cris]

Well no not quite. I'm not suggesting that a god is possible; establishing what is possible is a discussion in its own right, and a pre-requisite before considering actual existence. The concept of gods is a rather childish, naive and simplistic perspective, but when we allow our imaginations to roam freely then we can invent many more scenarios for explaining life the universe and everything. Just read some science fiction for examples.

But I agree that for the moment all we can depend on is what we know, and gods are certainly not part of that domain. The baseless theist assertions to the contrary are indeed frustratingly annoying and irrational.