god and the universe are at odds



1: Reality is the universe, everything herein is nature. ... within the limited perception capability of our senses..

2: The universe is "that which exists" ... as far as we limit what 'exists' to our perception within the limited capability through our five senses.

3: The supernatural is "that which is beyond nature".

4: Thus the supernatural, by definition, is that which does not exist... ...again; as far as we limit the 'existence' to our perception within the limited capability through our five senses.

5: God is a supernatural entity, outside of reality... it often depends on the believer's social conditionings. God is an imaginatiıon in man's mind, thought to be a supernatural entity, either within the universe, or without the universe.

Moreover, given the modern definition of `God` as the omnipresent creator of the universe;

6: If the God exists, it must exist within the universe...
7: Indeed, by definition, it is omnipresent throughout the universe
8: Existence of God is dependent upon prior existence of the universe
9: So the universe had to exist before the God
10: The modern definition of God is a self-contradictory paradox

A thing that doesn`t exist has no influence. It cannot create itself, nor the conditions necessary for its emergence.
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So we come to conclude that the modern definition of `God` has a lack of logical integrity and it does not exist! It remains simply as an imagination in man's mind...

Yet, considering that all our judgments about universe, god and existence are valid as far as we limit the 'existence' to our perception through the five senses and considering that our perception tools are LIMITED only to observe a very small section of what is there (a very narrow range of frequencies can be sensed compared to what is already available in space) , and considering that the real existence is not limited to the limits of our perception tools, we can hence understand that the basic reality is "limtlessness" of all that exists, beyond which there can be nothing. Because, there is no 'beyond' to the limitless, and limitlessness is all alone on its own.

Nature, the universe, the existence and everyting we can either perceive or not, is ORIGINATED FROM THIS LIMITLESS ONE. So, this LIMITLESS ONE is the Originator, the Creator of everything we know of and we do not know of including nature, the universe, the entire existence. All things are ORGANIZED by this basic limitless One. It has no separate entity to consider beside 'you' or beside the universe. It cannot be considered as a GOD. Nothing and no one is separate from its WHOLENESS. Nothing and no one is UNDIVIDED from its ONENESS.

This UNSEPARATED, UNDIVIDED, UNBROKEN WHOLE ONE has been referred to as "ALLAH" by Mohammed (pbuh) and in the Koran which confirms all the previous scriptures. This Whole ONE has been tried to communicate to man in any of the scriptures by all spiritual masters, who are the attainers of the essence that we know as prophets, saints, etc. Yet, man has always sculpted an image of God in his mind within the limits of his perception capability, which does not match the reality of truth.

ALLAH is not a god out there. ALLAH is not separate from us. ALLAH is the reality, the truth of limitless oneness within the essence of every being. So, ALLAH is within us, within the essence of everyone of us. We are created to fullfill the reason of being a caliph of ALLAH. ALLAH manifests Hu's qualities through ourselves and everything. Our existence takes its origin entirely from the qualities of ALLAH.

We cannot worship ALLAH as if it were a God out there but we all SERVE ALLAH at any moment of our lives, willingly or unwillingly. All men are servants of ALLAH. Therefore we need to treat others as we would like to be treated... Becasue WE ALL ARE ONE WITHIN.

If we live unaware of that truth, we will suffer the result of our ignarence forever in fire. But if we take care of this reality and live accordingly, then our lives will turn to a life of heaven in which we will be able to observe the qualities of ALLAH, the limitless ONE, manifest through ourselves.

This teaching is the essence of the Koran. What ALLAH is is expalined in the Chapter of Oneness in it. For a comprehensive reading about that chapter I suggest you to go to www.ahmedbaki.com/english and read the free online book MOHAMMED'S ALLAH.
 
"A thing that doesn`t exist has no influence. It cannot create itself, nor the conditions necessary for its emergence"

but (assume that) God exists now, so he could now create himself in the past - creating a circular argument beating even the chicken/egg one
 
alain:
Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts.[Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.]


ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator of the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. :]

the infidelguy
 
although you are entitled to follow your line of inquiry, i feel the urge to tell you you are wasting your energy worrying over it
For a start you are assuming there being a 'God'......and from this assumption wonder how 'he'? operates in relation to a 'mere mortal'?......isn't this old hat? hasn't this all been done? aren't we now in the post-quantum age suppsed to be a bit moe hip?

But it's not just a hip thing for now, what i mean by hip is the understanding of much more ancinet insight--pre-the idea of a patriarchal super-daddy in the sky.
you know like spirited matter. matter as active intelligence.....so that whatever is intelligent Is the very environment you r organism grows out of

also, that when you try and understand this intelligence using dualistic terms.....abstract oppositional terms like 'good' and 'bad' 'mortal' and ;immortal', then you are limited to whcih side you pick. Reality however is bothe sides/and
 
duendy: your last post, was a reply to whom, I am an atheist,I have no belief in a god/gods.
if you read my post it's anti god not pro.
and I am far from worrying over it.
 
right. but when you say "anti-god" i am further wondering what you mean by that. do you mean anti-the idea people have of a god-in-the-sky-whose-all-good etc., or anti the insight that there is profound depth to reality, which could be felt as BEING god, when directly experienced. don't know if i am clear?
 
duendy said:
i am further wondering what you mean by that. do you mean anti-the idea people have of a god-in-the-sky-whose-all-good etc
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yes no fantasy figures, no sky daddy.
duendy said:
the insight that there is profound depth to reality, which could be felt as BEING god, when directly experienced.
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and yes no hulucinations, delusions, I question that it can be a insight or experienced???.
I my self am not anti god, I have no belief in a god/gods to be anti with.

however this post does question the existence
mis said:
Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts.[Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.]


ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator of the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. :]

the infidelguy
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of such a creature so it is anti.
I am just pointing the fallacy out.
 
mis-t-highs said:
alain:
Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts.[Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.]


ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator of the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. :]

the infidelguy
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5) Further hence Y was not created by x
6) Everything has to be created at some point by something to exist
7) X has to be created by something to have to exist
8) y was not temporal to create x
9) hence x could not have been created
10) x does not exist...... :)

actually the flaw may be self creation.....infidelguy assumes that self creation is not possible....religion asserts that it is......secular scientist hypothsize self creation articulated as the "big bang theroy.

The problem or gap I see with the big bang theory doesn't stem from weather their was a bang or not, but instead, how can something create itself outside of nothing? Spontaneous creation seems as logical as spontaneous combustion, but to be a secular scientist that is what you are prescribing too by saying the universe created itself.

A question of the beginning may be in the theory or anti-theroy of self creation. Is it or is it not possible?

Another question could be the infinity of time......while time has been proven to exist...has it ever been proven to have an absolute beginning or absolute end? Infinity is mathimatically valid....why is it that it cannot apply to time....
 
Miss-T-highs
"Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts.[Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.]"

im not a Christian, so don't assume i speak for them with this. (i dont believe in a omniscient God) but assuming God was Omnicscient. he could have made all his decisions at the beginning of the universe, and therefore he can know them.
 
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