Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
No. I admit the observation / experience occurred but not as interpreted as paranormal.
Actually rarely if ever have I seen you admit the experience as it occurred. Usually you deny the experience in favor of a hoax or error or, as in Kitt's case, some sort of false memory syndrome.
It is not so much contradicting as expanding on what is considered to be paranormal.
Going from "paranormal = unexplained" to "unexplained does not = paranormal" isn't an expansion so much as a contradiction. But that's fine. I'm used to you changing your definition of words in the middle of a debate.
You need to be clear on what you are considering to be "paranormal": the observation or the explanation.
It is the explanations that are considered paranormal, not the observations themselves. Paranormal explanations are not supported by science.
I am not clear on the distinction between the explanation and the observation because there is in fact no clear distinction here. Science itself provides many examples of explanations/theories that also designate the phenomena itself. Evolution is a theory AND a process of nature. Gravity is a theory AND a force of nature. Even electricity is a theory AND a form of energy. That's what explanations do. They identify new phenomena and ascribe to it properties/traits that make it identifiable as such from then on. The term paranormal is no different. It is both a theory and class of phenomena that is identified by the theory.
But just because one considers an explanation to be paranormal does not mean that they think what was observed does not exist. This is a straw man that you continually raise and it is tiresome.
It is a point you contradictorily assume. You say we should never have to posit paranormal causes because there are always mundane factors that can be attributed instead. IOW, paranormal as an explanation logically cannot ever exist. But then you say a paranormal explanation DOES have validity in what it posits as the cause of the phenomenon. So which is it? Is paranormality EVER a valid explanation for a phenomena?
The scientific method does not imply a test for the cause, but establishing the cause might be one aim of such tests.
??? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself again.
Others might merely be to establish correlations, with the cause of each being deemed unknown.
Establishing correlations towards to goal of isolating the cause.
There is also no "knowledge of paranormal phenomena" - because for it to be knowledge it must be true. And that is the question that we are trying to answer.
We'll have to agree to disagree then here because in my 10 years of studying the phenomena I have observed abundant evidence for the existence of paranormal phenomena such that we can indeed acquire knowledge about it.
While it is a valid method to assume characteristics and then test observations against those characteristics, one still does not show the cause of those characteristics as being "ghosts", for example. This is where rationality has to take over as to what we choose to believe or not believe as being the cause, or to simply say "we don't know" if that is more appropriate.
So again you deny the validity of a paranormal explanation de facto. All we can say is "we don't know" because afterall all causes are mundane in nature. That's a philosophical assumption on your part and not one based on science. There's probably no mundane cause for consciousness either, but we don't say consciousness as a transmundane phenomena doesn't exist.
But you seem to want people to accept the evidence for the paranormal, and yet you argue that the paranormal is not subject to the normal requirements for establishing that evidence and so should be given some special dispensation?
No..I simply insist that the paranormal as a field of study in itself not be dismissed from the outset in the name of some assumption of physical reductionism. I insist the evidence be examined objectively and compared with any alternative explanations that might fit better. That's all I'm asking.
Sure. Feel free to come up with something useful and workable in that regard.
The "you don't have an answer yet" fallacy. Once again, as if a phenomena has to have a scientific explanation to be accepted as real.
Indeed. It is in the explanation of causes, for example, where you depart from science into the realm of paranormal.
Then maybe the paranormal is not in the purview of science. Maybe we need new methodologies and heuristics to validate the paranormal, much as we have in other fields such as historical research, politics, psychology, and philosophy.
You can, but there is no scientific evidence for it, just anecdotal, or the willingness to jump on the paranormal bandwagon before eliminating all the more rational explanations... quite often due to some poor appreciation of what it means for something to be more rational.
Once again in all investigations I have observed the mundane explanations ARE debunked first before positing the paranormal as a cause. This is SOP for researchers in this field. And as far as the evidence being anecdotal--yes all evidence is anecdotal. You always take someone else's word for it that such and such happened. It's how we operate in human society.
There aren't an infinite, but there are usually far more than the paranormal investigator is willing to examine or perhaps capable of examining.
Until you get adequately robust testing, or even robust recording of the phenomena, such that all rational explanations can be negated, then you should not jump on the paranormal as an explanation.
Once again, the paranormal should never even exist as an explanation because we might always find a mundane explanation later on. That's ridiculous. Paranormality has it's own traits and properties that distinguish it every bit as much electricity or radiation distinguishes itself by. Ignoring these typicalities and just saying you don't know the cause isn't scientific. It's resigned ignorance. Science is all about inferring kinds of phenomena based on certain recurring patterns in how it behaves. That's how we know there's paranormal phenomena. Because it recurs in certain typical ways and expresses common characteristics.
No, what people have done is reinforced an irrational and unscientific explanation through lazy attempts at science, anecdotal evidence, and through a process that has no rigour and only ever takes seemingly positive results as its sample base.
Uh oh. Here we go again with the demoralization of paranormalists. They're irrational AND lazy, even though they're actually the only ones out in the field making the observations and recording the results. If you wanna see lazy, ask a skeptic to examine paranormal phenomena itself. You will never get him out of his armchair to test the phenomena himself. He is more content to pontificate and absolutize from the comfort of his own living room or website.
Under such a method you end up with "paranormal" almost by default. You hunt for positive results and make the findings fit the paranormal explanation you want.
No less than one only looking for mundane causes who just knows for a fact that the paranormal is never valid as an explanation. Physician heal thyself.
Or everyone who subsequently reperforms the experiment, or who rely on the fruits of the experiments, in whatever form that may be.
But even then we are only relying on the self-reports and anecdotes of those reperforming scientists. For all we know the experiment could be entirely hoaxed just to get a paper published or win a research grant. I'm sure that happens more often that we'd like to think.
But behind the acceptance of scientific reports is a robust method of data collection, as well as peer review, and some authority is quite often placed in that process.
All assuming the data presented hasn't been skewed by those performing the experiments. Once again, the acceptance of anecdote over direct experience.
No, what would not be disputed is that the chair moves, or that there were sounds, or that there is a light (or what appears to be a light) etc. By stating that it is "due to some invisible agent" is already making assumptions that are unwarranted.
That would be true if this were the first time we ever encountered such phenomena. Fortunately it isn't and we have a body of knowledge about how paranormal phenomena present themselves and how it typically happens. Hence the ability to posit it AS a phenomena, much as we do with evolution, gravity, or electricity.
Presumably because the other explanations were deemed to be more rational, requiring nothing but mundane causes rather than something for which no scientific evidence has ever been forthcoming. Could you prove that their explanations were all impossible?
I discounted each of the explanations based on the evidence. None held up. It's not a matter of proving their impossibility. Those would be unfalsifiable theories, and hence unscientific to begin.
Almost every location on earth is connected with death at some point in its history. But no, it is not done with every investigation. In fact the only investigations it is done would be the ones where they uncover the mundane cause relatively quickly. It would simply be too time consuming and expensive to negate all mundane causes, which is why it does not happen.
And which is why you have set the goal posts of proof beyond all possible reach. Even if the investigators rule out all logical mundane causes, which is something pretty easily done with moving objects, you will sit with arms crossed and grumble: "But there could always be some other mundane cause." That's essentially making proof of the paranormal impossible, which is something that would really make skeptics happy I bet.
But please show me one example of where they have exhausted all possible mundane causes, where there is no possible alternative other than "ghosts".
Examine the cases yourself. There's plenty posted on the over 2000 paranormal investigator websites one can peruse online.
Again, I didn't see the program, nor the detail of what they did or didn't do, so can't comment on that. But if they didn't show the existence or absence of the naturally occurring low frequencies, how does that lend any credence to "ghosts"? Are you claiming their lack of apparent rigour (if that is what they are guilty of) is support for the paranormal? Otherwise I wonder why you raised this example?
I cited this as example of the supposedly scientifically rigorous doing a very sloppy investigation of a reported phenomena. It goes to the myth that "scientific people" are somehow free from bias or of an agenda to prove that the paranormal can't exist. If they were more concerned with studying the phenomena itself, they would not so easily take their theory of LF soundwaves so seriously, particularly when there is no evidence the LF soundwaves even exist in the prison.