Get your atheism fuel here......

Empty space is not actually "empty". It is filled with pairs of virtual particles and antiparticles that pop into existence, move apart, and them come back together and mutually annihilate.
============
Your still not going back far enough....mater and anti mater colliding state something has already been seperated....
God created these things from nothing....and seperated out positive from negative, good from evil , day from night, darkness from light.......mater from anti mater.....
God and Satan, who is equal in every way I stated except the ability to create something from nothing.

The power of the spoken word of God creates something from nothing....no particles of anti-mater reqiured.

Empty space is in itself a creation, your haven't nearly gone far enough to say anything disproving God at all.
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor
Your still not going back far enough....mater and anti mater colliding state something has already been seperated....
No, you're simply not understanding. These particles appear out of empty space for no reason; there is no causal event it just happens. Thus the assertion that "something cannot come from nothing (excepting God)" is incorrect; it has been proven to be factually inaccurate.

The power of the spoken word of God creates something from nothing....no particles of anti-mater reqiured.
The Universe exhibits this same ability... to create something out of nothing.

Empty space is in itself a creation, your haven't nearly gone far enough to say anything disproving God at all.
It isn't an argument against God, it is proof that the claim, that only God can create something from nothing, is false.

~Raithere
 
These particles appear out of empty space for no reason; there is no causal event it just happens
==============

There is a reason for everything.....Just because you don't understand it, does not naturally imply that there must be no reason for it.....

That's quite a leap, And you say christianity is blind faith..... :p

That's the arrogance of scientist's today..............

Also like I said, Empty space is in itself a creation......
You apparently don't realize what "nothing" means.......

He created heavens and earth and all that are in them.....including "empty" space.
 
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Originally posted by TheVisitor
Your still not going back far enough....mater and anti mater colliding state something has already been seperated....
God created these things from nothing....and seperated out positive from negative, good from evil , day from night, darkness from light.......mater from anti mater.....
Are you saying that God is constantly creating all these virtual particles every moment? Why would he create a universe that he had to constantly maintain?

Empty space is in itself a creation, your haven't nearly gone far enough to say anything disproving God at all.
I'm not trying to disprove the existence of God (I don't even believe that is possible). As Raithere said, I was simply providing an example of how something can come from nothing without divine intervention. Of course, if you believe that God is controlling each pair of virtual particles, then that won't help you. But you did ask for an example.
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor
There is a reason for everthing.
Care to prove that? :grin:

Just because you don't understand it, this don't naturally imply that there must be no reason for it.
No, once again, it is you who does not understand. As with radioactive decay there is no causal event there is simply a certain probability that it will happen within a certain amount of time.

Also like I said, Empty space is in itself a creation.
Care to prove that one too?

He created heavens and earth and all that are in them.....including "empty" space.
Proof?


Your demand for causation is entirely arbitrary; you have no evidence that supports the assertion that everything (except God of course) must have a cause. Your entire argument is based upon unfounded supposition. As such it is a rather unconvincing argument. It most definetly does not constitue proof.

~Raithere
 
visitor

That's the arrogance of scientist's today..............

same applies to you buddy, just wonderin, all your quotes from the bible, are they off the top of your head because if they are that is quite impressive. scientists cannot be sure how this anti-matter exists, its just a hypothesis that they hopefully will one day understand and prove or disprove, many christians are scientists, are you calling them arrogant aswell?
 
Confused

Hey fellow freethinkers.
I was arguing with a theist on another message board, and he hit me with this

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance). This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

Since the manner of presentation has already been addressed, I shall simply point out the logical fallacy in the argument.

In debate, the proposing team in a debate round is usually (but not always) assumed to have the burden of proof, which means that if the team fails to prove the proposition to the satisfaction of the judge, the opposition wins. In a sense, the opposition team's case is assumed true until proven false. But the burden of proof can sometimes be shifted; for example, in some forms of debate, the proposing team can shift the burden of proof to the opposing team by presenting a prima facie case that would, in the absence of refutation, be sufficient to affirm the proposition. Still, the higher burden generally rests with the proposing team, which means that only the opposition is in a position to make an accusation of argumentum ad ignorantiam with respect to proving the proposition.

The way I am interpreting your argument you are proposing that those that believe in God are essentially idiots. You are proposing that it is up to the theist to prove that God exists. As such I shall oppose such a claim. By the rules of debate you are welcome to present your case and if you would like I am sure many others and I would love to cross-examine. I am anxiously await your proposition and its proof.

Note: My attempt here is to help the topic get back to a point of discussion and debate as opposed to posts that regurgitate existing posts.
:bugeye: :confused: :confused:

Ummm, whaaaa? He's asking me to prove that the burden of proof is on the theist!

What do I say? This is extremely confusing? Any ideas or arguments? grrr, that little rat.
 
Mountainhare;
what a rat indeed:D
and what a load of garbage.
The fact is there are more indications for you being right than there are for him, so be confident.
Challenge him to a 'proof-off', rather than deciding which one of you should have proof you should both put the proofs you have on the table and see who has more:cool:
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor
All we did was set some initial values and let it all happen...

Evolution in a nutshell......

==================


You had to "have" certain materials to begin with though, didn't you...?


Only God can create something from nothing.
Satan is equal to God in amost every way.....except he can't create something from nothing.
This is what he told Eve, how to be a god and create life through sex, he has taken what God has created and changed it, or perverted it into another form, thats all he can do.
This includes mankind under his influence.
This world today has become "Satan's Eden"
He has had 6,000 years to design it.
It is the "world", which has been pulled over your eye's.
You were born a slave,...... born into the slavery of sin, which is unbelief.
Only through the revelation of Jesus Christ, can you be healed of this unbelief and come to realize your full potential as a son or daughter of God.
Jesus said; "He that I set free, is free indeed."

How is all that revelant? I surpose you think you are doing gods work randomly quoting the bible in this forum... ? Did you even give a momments thought to the topic I started? What's your opinion (ie not what you are told to think in the bible) ... any intellegent toughts on this topic.... no?

You don't have to be a god....
Information can be created and destroyed ad infinitum. If i write a software program its really all electronic pulses in a computer... but it contains information and has complexity and form.... so it does exist... you could sort of say it has been 'created' its really just a logical arrangment of electrical charges... but what if that software then goes about creating something itself?

We didn't have materials to begin with. Just some choosen values and booleans but even if we put in all zeros, or random garbage the algorthims still would have created something useful that didn't previously exist.

:D

also, to rark you up some more, do you know that 'true satanists' believe that god wrote the bible (yes they believe the bible is true and divinely inspired) to decieve us into thinking we were made by him when we are really just fallen angels inhabiting animal bodies. and that satan was kicked out of heaven for challenging god's scheme to brainwash us all?
garbage, but its actually more believeable than the christian version. Gosh its hard to know which deity to trust these days, so just believe nothing, its safer that way, at least theres zero chance someone is trying to decieve you.
 
Re: venomx

Originally posted by Crunchy Cat
Can I grab a sample of your source code? I've always wanted to create a graphical visualization of the concept that you
implemented.

yes, i'll post some. but i'm not owner of any the actual code i've worked on, nor have much acess anymore. Would have to ask my boss who would react: "you want to do what?". haha.
i'll post a link later to some .zips with C++ examples i've done in my own time thus wont get me a law suit. :D
for now, this site is a good intro to the concept:
http://cs.felk.cvut.cz/~xobitko/ga/
 
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Re: Confused

Originally posted by mountainhare
Ummm, whaaaa? He's asking me to prove that the burden of proof is on the theist!
The proposition under debate between Theist and Atheist is the Theistic assertion that God exists; unless you are proposing the strong atheistic position that God does not exist. So it depends upon whether you are asserting the strong or weak position. Of course, if you're asserting that people who believe in God are idiots (as he suggests) then the burden of proof is indeed upon you.

~Raithere
 
TheVisitor-

The power of the spoken Word, to create something from absolutly nothing.......belongs to God alone.

Somehow I feel this claim backs you into a corner. You say God is the only thing that can create something from nothing, but then the same question is plaguing the creation of God. To say everything is created leaves open your God to the same scrutiny of this idea you propose.

To say God has always been in existance is the same thing as saying the universe has always been in existance(in terms of an infinity based concept) Why does thinking God has always been in existance hold more intellectual weight than thinking the universe has always been in existance? I think they both raise the same questions and show our awesome lack of understanding on this momentous concept of the universe and to how it functions.
 
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Why does thinking God has always been in existance hold more intellectual weight than thinking the universe has always been in existance?

===============

Because God said it is so in His Word.
More and more, His Word is proven to be right in every infinite detail, only Man's interpretation of it's meaning was in error.

I could attempt to explain how this creation took place but unless you see the Word of God as a static true, and use it for an absolute my explaination will prove little to the critic.

In the beginning God....(Elohim) dwelt alone as a spirit, before the "beginning" he had in Him attributes to be expressed. Like genes. They were in His mind before the foundation of the World, as a thought. These are the sons of God.
A Word is a thought expressed, and when God spoke He began to form into the material. He created the heavens and the earth, and all therein.
He created Adam, a son of God, Spirit...made in His own image, for God is a Spirit. The Word body is a body created by the spoken word without hands. A theophany body.
Then God created a body from the dust of the earth, to till the soil. Adam was a son of God. He could not be deceived. And He like the type of God he represented dwelled alone.
When God took Eve from adam , she was created a by-product from Man , in His Image, not Gods.
She was made vastly different from all the other females in that she was the most beautiful, not the male of the human species, and she could be touched anytime, not just when in "season" for her babies as the other animals.
She was created so She could be deceived.....
Adam was not deceived. He went with her willingly after she fell to save her, just as Jesus came down from heaven and died to redeem His Bride.
Elohim did not cause man to fall, but in Him was the attribute to be a saviour, a healer, a son, a daughter, a father...ect...
He knew by foreknowledge what Man would do, and let it happen so He could be our saviour, and reddem us even after we disobeyed and denyed His Word was true essentially calling God a liar, by our actions.
His word, every Word is true, only what was in His mind when he wrote it is sealed to be revealed to whom He wills it.

The bible says "God himself came down in the cool of the evening, and talked with Adam".
The Tree of Life, is the Word of God (In the book of Proverbs it says, "the words of a righteous man are as the fruits of the tree of life")
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil , was the serpent , which they were commanded not to eat of least they die. ( a mixed tree containing the truth mixed with lies) The best lie is the one that contains 99% of the truth, and only 1% lie.
The Serpent said to Eve, "surely you shall not die, but your eyes shall be opened and you shall be like gods". Adam was created by the spoken Word. Satan can not create something from nothing, he can only pervert something God has already created, so he used the serpent to seduce Eve and thereby create a hybrid race.
Only after God cursed it and changed evey bone in it's body was it turned into a snake as we see it today....but the damage was already done. Eve was pregnate with Cain, the serpents seed.
Then we have two races on the earth - The sons of God, Adam and Eves true children, and the sons of men....the offsring of the Serpent through Eve.
She was the "mother" of all living, but Adam was not the "father" of all living.
The bible says "Cain was of his father the wicked one"
Just a perfect type of the church today......
Jesus said of the religious leaders of His day...
"Ye serpents, Ye generation of Vipers you do always resist the Holy Ghost"...also He said..."You are of your father the devil and his works you will do"
He called them "whited sepcatures full of dead mens bones".
Ever wonder why....? Now you know.
 
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Ok.. because he said so in his word? thats not a satisfactory answer, and again your quoting the bible. you have yet to speak your own words o mysterious TheVisitor

in rebuttal: "god said so in his word", implies of course that the bible is the divine word of god... this knowledge comes to us via the bible, the divine word of god, which clearly stats that it is the true divine word of god.

... is this not a paradox?

I'm right, I'm always right.
What I say is true because I stated so, so it must be true.
But wait everything I say is a lie... (but that isn't a lie? or is it?)
This statement is false...

As for ... "Man's interpretation of it's meaning was in error" .... thats scraping the bottom of the barrel isn't it?
Your also suggesting that the whole of christianity has gotten the meaning of the bible completely wrong..... in which case I wholeheartedly agree.....
 
TheVisitor-

Because God said it is so in His Word.

This is probaby the most unsatisfying answer I have ever received on this forum.

I could attempt to explain how this creation took place but unless you see the Word of God as a static true, and use it for an absolute my explaination will prove little to the critic.

You know why your explanation will prove little, because it is just a appeal to authority. "the bible says so, and this is all you need to come to a conclusion."

only Man's interpretation of it's meaning was in error

So which interpretation do you use? Let me guess.......human???? You are awesome at using the best copouts ever. I'll give you that. It appears to me that no matter what opposing evidence comes to light, you will always go back to the lack of human understanding to be the cause of the contradiction.

Hypothetical situation- The bible says the world is flat. Humans say no thats wrong, the world is round. Look here are the reasons why the world is round.....then you say "no you humans are wrong because you see.... the bible is always right. "

You made up your mind of the bible's validity on the basis of nothing. You need to reason and find facts, but you have turned your back on the quest for truth. You found something that sounds pretty and happy and sugar coated and decided that it would become your truth. "forget intelligence, I chose self deception!!!"
 
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Where Do Virtual Particles Come From?

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
Virtual particles.
I could almost swear these are hypothesised to orignate from parallel universes/dimensions. But hey, what do I know?:p
 
HUH????

What does evolution have to do with atheism anyway? You poeple have a loooooooot of time on your hands. I guess the moderators have to keep the threads going but, man, can't you guys come with something better???
 
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I think Evolution might be directed at invalidating 'Adam
and Eve' for the Christian religion specifically. In theory,
that could lead to some Christians turning Athiest.
 
well those people who's conviction in christ it's weak may change but for me, when i hear those arguemnts it just toughens my stance with god.
 
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