Germany: 1 Scientology: 0

Yes, but I don't think you fully understand this issue. Tom has a right to believe in whatever the hell he wants to. But the fact of the matter is, is that Germany (and France too, I believe) does not recognize Scientology. They think it's just a front to make money, and has no credibility; a scam if you will. And since Cruise is a firm believer in the 'scam' Germany thinks it is, then that is what happens.
Again this has nothing to do with the issue. They can refuse to recognize whatever the hell they want, it doesn't stop people having those beliefs, and it doesn't change that they are refusing on the basis of those beliefs. If they want to charge him with fraud go ahead if that's what they believe it to be. If they consider him in some way morally flawed then fine. I do not have a problem with them not recognizing it.
What that has to do with filming a movie however is absolutely nothing and using those beliefs as a basis for a decision is something I consider to be dangerous. Don't confuse not diluting the issue with not understanding it, this is an entirely seperate issue to if scientology should be recognized.
I accept the military can deny people access to their bases for whatever reason they like as they are not public facilities, right down to reasons of the colour of someones skin if they desire. I'm questioning how dangerous this is. There would be uproar if it was because of an official religion. Or because he's short, or brown haired or white. The only basis anyone finds this acceptable is because of their views against scientology, which, whilst possibly being justified, doesn't make denying filming a movie acceptable.

Let me ask you this, do you think it was wrong for Cruise (and prolly Travolta too) to bitch and whine like grade school girls about the episode of Southpark when they made fun of Scientology, to the point where Comedy Central yanked any reruns of the episode? Keep this in mind; this is after SP had been on for several seasons and had made fun of basically every single religion they could think of before, yet not a peep out of Cruise, or that hypocritcal Isaac Hayes until the Scientology episode.
If you DON'T think it was wrong for Cruise to bitch about that episode to get it pulled, then you, Flag my friend, have double standards.
Southpark is a comedy show, lightheartedly it makes fun of EVERYTHING, Jews, Osama Bin Laden, Canada, and none of those episodes were pulled. Why would I think the scientology one should be? It's not special. Of course he is free to say what he likes, but it shouldn't be pulled on the special basis of his beliefs. Same as he shouldn't be refused a location on the basis of them. Not entirely sure why you mention it, unless perhaps you think I'm a scientologist and would be offended by it.
 
Again this has nothing to do with the issue. .....The only basis anyone finds this acceptable is because of their views against scientology, which, whilst possibly being justified, doesn't make denying filming a movie acceptable.
I'm still anxious to see how this pans out. I just reread the article and it looks like they don't want Cruise, who is affiliated with a 'religion' that Germany thinks is a scam, playing Stauffenberg; a figure that Germany holds in such high regard. It looks to be about reputation and representation here.
I neither agree, nor disagree with Germany's stance on Cruise playing Stauffenberg, but I do agree with them on their views of Scientology.


Southpark is a comedy show, lightheartedly it makes fun of EVERYTHING, Jews, Osama Bin Laden, Canada, and none of those episodes were pulled. Why would I think the scientology one should be? It's not special. Of course he is free to say what he likes, but it shouldn't be pulled on the special basis of his beliefs. Same as he shouldn't be refused a location on the basis of them. Not entirely sure why you mention it, unless perhaps you think I'm a scientologist and would be offended by it.


Even though the original airing wasn't pulled, because I saw it and it was fukin hilarious, the scheduled subsequent airings of it were initially pulled before Trey and Matt told CC to put that shit back on the air or they weren't making anymore episodes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapped_in_the_Closet_(South_Park)

Cliff notes:
This episode was scheduled to rebroadcast on March 15, 2006 on Comedy Central, but the airing was canceled without prior notice, and was replaced with "Chef's Chocolate Salty Balls". Representatives of Comedy Central insist that the episode was changed as a tribute to Isaac Hayes.[14] The episode did not broadcast on Paramount Comedy 1 as well, although every other episode of the season has been

A blog entry of Hollywoodinterrupted.com in March alleged that Comedy Central parent Viacom canceled the rebroadcast due to threats of Cruise to abstain from the Mission: Impossible III publicity circle.[17] When asked in ABC's Primetime about his involvement with stopping the episode rebroadcast on Comedy Central, Cruise stated "First of all, could you ever imagine sitting down with anyone? I would never sit down with someone and question them on their beliefs. Here's the thing: I'm really not even going to dignify this. I honestly didn't really even know about it. I'm working, making my movie, I've got my family. I'm busy. I don't spend my days going, 'What are people saying about me?'".[18] A representative of Cruise had also denied any involvement of Cruise with the issue, specifically responding to allegations of Cruise's reputed corporate power play.[19]
Even Cruise is smart enough to deny something like that. He would have been on most, if not all SP fans' shit lists.

The episode was also released in several DVDs, including South Park the Hits: Volume 1[23] and South Park: The Complete Ninth Season,[24] in contradiction with an alleged request by either the Church of Scientology or Cruise to never put the episode on DVD format.[20]
 
I'm still anxious to see how this pans out. I just reread the article and it looks like they don't want Cruise, who is affiliated with a 'religion' that Germany thinks is a scam, playing Stauffenberg; a figure that Germany holds in such high regard. It looks to be about reputation and representation here.
I neither agree, nor disagree with Germany's stance on Cruise playing Stauffenberg, but I do agree with them on their views of Scientology.
I did read in a different source that a family member of Stauffenberg(grandson?) was unhappy at Cruise playing the role because of his beliefs, which perhaps the rest of Germany agrees with. I think they're free to boycott the cinema and refuse to see the movie, but where to draw the line? I think individuals can make that choice, but a government should be impartial. Why don't they just outright ban the movie in Germany?(I highly doubt they will). As I said earlier I don't think they'll follow through with this refusal or they will look very hypocritical at some point.
I agree with your last two lines, but that's why I don't consider it reasonable to prevent filming on location, it's just a movie and he's just a part.

Even though the original airing wasn't pulled, because I saw it and it was fukin hilarious, the scheduled subsequent airings of it were initially pulled before Trey and Matt told CC to put that shit back on the air or they weren't making anymore episodes:
Quite right that Trey and Matt would say that. They've done everything else on Southpark and when it came round to Isaac Hayes' turn he quit. If you can't take it don't dish it out. I'd only back him up if he felt his beliefs had been grossly misrepresented and would be influential in some way to peoples views. Most people will realise it's not true and just comedy though.
 
He believes scientology to be correct, just as people have all kinds of different religions. Whether it is a religion or cult is entirely another matter it IS his belief, and they want to prevent him shooting a movie in certain places because of it.


It is not about his beliefs, but the organisation he is a member of. His beliefs aren't litigious, mind controlling, and profit oriented, his organisation is.
 
Please explain how religions like Christianity or Islam fit this description.


Well, the Church of England has assets mounting to nearly £4Bn, and spends nearly £1Bn a year, so generates that in revenue from it's holdings. I would say therefore it fits the description.
 
Please explain how religions like Christianity or Islam fit this description.

I don't need to , George Carlin did it perfectly:

"In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend. But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way.

And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was. In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!
 
It is not about his beliefs, but the organisation he is a member of. His beliefs aren't litigious, mind controlling, and profit oriented, his organisation is.

The organisation they have a problem with him being a member of is scientology, which as I recall has a belief system, his movie has nothing to do with that so why should they base their decision on it? His organisation has no part in this movie only him, so yes, they ARE doing this specifically because of his beliefs; which is entirely wrong and sets a bad precedent.
There is a fine line between scientology and some religions when it comes to mind controlling and profit making, as I believe has been pointed out in this thread. Either way, it is no basis for making the decision they have regarding this movie.
 
I did read in a different source that a family member of Stauffenberg(grandson?) was unhappy at Cruise playing the role because of his beliefs, which perhaps the rest of Germany agrees with. I think they're free to boycott the cinema and refuse to see the movie, but where to draw the line? I think individuals can make that choice, but a government should be impartial. Why don't they just outright ban the movie in Germany?(I highly doubt they will). As I said earlier I don't think they'll follow through with this refusal or they will look very hypocritical at some point.
I agree with your last two lines, but that's why I don't consider it reasonable to prevent filming on location, it's just a movie and he's just a part.


Quite right that Trey and Matt would say that. They've done everything else on Southpark and when it came round to Isaac Hayes' turn he quit. If you can't take it don't dish it out. I'd only back him up if he felt his beliefs had been grossly misrepresented and would be influential in some way to peoples views. Most people will realise it's not true and just comedy though.

they put up a disclamier when talking of scientologys beliefs so people wouldn't think they were making anything up. they stated the groups real beliefs with a diclamier on screen saying they were not making this up and it was real.
 
Yep. Isaac Hayes. It's funny how he had NO problem with Trey and Matt making fun of; Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, black people, asian people, white people...<insert topic to make fun of here>, yet he got all butt-hurt when Scientology rolled around.
Ha don't forget Mormonism.

Lucy Harris smart smart smart
Martin Harris dumb.
So Martin went on back to Smith
Said the pages had gone away
Smith got mad and told Martin
He needed to go pray
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
 
Yep. Isaac Hayes. It's funny how he had NO problem with Trey and Matt making fun of; Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, black people, asian people, white people...<insert topic to make fun of here>, yet he got all butt-hurt when Scientology rolled around. :confused:

thats exactly the first thing i said when i found out about it, spot on.

peace.
 
The organisation they have a problem with him being a member of is scientology, which as I recall has a belief system, his movie has nothing to do with that so why should they base their decision on it?

Scientology is a business over a belief system. Germany can do what it wants when we are talking about allowing access to a military base. They aren't disbarring Cruise from entering the country, just a secure installation, so get a grip.
 
Scientology is a business over a belief system. Germany can do what it wants when we are talking about allowing access to a military base. They aren't disbarring Cruise from entering the country, just a secure installation, so get a grip.
I think you'd find I wrote most of that earlier. Yet still nobody has come up with a reason why they should base a decision like this on beliefs, looks, or even affiliations. Economic reasons, practicality, security, there are, I'm sure, many more criteria to base the decision on.
I don't believe the way someone looks or what they believe should come into it however I accepted the military can do what they like with regards to base access as it is not public, but I also pointed out that if they had denied access on the basis of anything else then you'd all be up in arms about it for discrimination reasons; Regardless of whether or not it is their prerogative. Unfortunately this is exactly the precedent for the future they have now set and you're defending it when I highly doubt you'd allow it with regards to others.
The simple fact is you dislike scientology and agree with them on this sole basis, not your objective ability to look at the subject at hand, which you don't seem to deny so we'll have to leave it at that. I don't need to get a grip on anything as I've covered both sides of the arguement, I merely dislike your blatant hypocrisy and bias.
 
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