So far I have seen four separate posts (two here, two on another board) that start this way. The person then goes on to express a racist opinion. Interesting.
George Zimmerman found Not Guilty.
- Thread starter Saturnine Pariah
- Start date
So far I have seen four separate posts (two here, two on another board) that start this way. The person then goes on to express a racist opinion. Interesting.
It is certainly not a perfect system. But how would you improve it? In our system a jury is supposed be composed of peers. But in this case, and in the Simpson case, that clearly was not the case. It appears Zimmerman’s jurors were in a very different social economic class from either Simpson or his wife. Martin’s social economic class was certainly not represented in Zimmerman’s jury. Maybe if we could find jurors that were more representative of the victim and the offender, we might get a better jury and better decisions. But I just don’t know.
We could go to a system of professional jurors, but then we get away from this notion of a trial by one’s peers that has been so central to our judicial system. And when all is said and done, I am not sure a professional jury would be any better or any worse than the current juror setup. Can we ever guarantee and unbiased jury? I don’t think we can. Our system has problems of that there is no doubt. I think it would work better if jurors were more representative of the accused and the victims, but that might be a logistical challenge. It is certainly a vexing problem for those who are interested in justice. We certainly don’t want to throw innocent people in jail either. So it is important to protect the rights of the accused.
Every once in a while we get these jury decisions that are not based on common sense or evidence. And I think they should bear some scrutiny. Perhaps, hopefully, we might learn something from these cases that will help us perfect our system of justice. This is a very complicated issue and there is no simple solution or at least none that I can see.
When I say the "system" I mean the entire process. If Zimmerman had a violent past which I'm just learning on here...how the hell did this man legally obtain a gun?
The jury actually did its job and here's why. They can only render a verdict based on the charges. I didn't see this as second degree murder. But I did see it as man slaughter. But in learning further what that actually means...it still sounds like there is some will involved. Deliberate will. I think what Zimmerman is guilty of us following Martin for no reason. Intimidating him. Martin seems like he was raised to stand his ground too when feeling threatened. Frankly if he swung at Zimmerman as Zimmerman claims...I honestly see nothing that surprising about that. Why the fuck are u following me...I even might have said.
So. Here's a guy with a gun feeling hard ...and decides to intimidate this kid. I don't think he set out to kill anyone that night. But he set out to intimidate a kid who was doing nothing wrong. That kid however...wasn't intimidated. And the rest we know.
I marvel...absolutely marvel at the fact that there are no laws against following someone? What?
I say bs! If this guy followed me? And I swung at him? As a woman? And he shot me? Killed me? Oh. He'd be in jail for life. But an African American teen...he's not.
Now granted...Martin was tall and about 200 lbs. Much more of a threat than I would be but still. Just trying to make a point that to me...that's where it becomes about race and gender.
And that is the "system."
Plus...in Florida...you only need six jurors. We need twelve in all states.
Again...a system "flaw."
Why this case is racially charged right now is because if Martin were a teen girl or a white teen boy. He'd be in jail. And we all damn well know it.
I don't think Zimmerman in the dark on a rainy night knew off the bat it was an African American kid...but he did eventually. I can't say if he would have felt as threatened if the kid were white or a girl upon getting closer up.
He shouldn't have followed him. And Martin could have been taught to step up and fight. I don't see anything wrong with if he swung at Zimmerman. A grown fucking man following him OUT of the neighborhood. For no reason.
Oh ...neighborhood watch is part of the system. That should strictly be ..,you appoint someone to call the police should be it should u see SUSPICIOUS behavior. Not...u take the law into your own hands.
Walking down a street in a hoodie at night is suspicious? Lol
The whole thing makes me so sad. Because there were so many moments that Zimmerman could have turned away. And he didn't.
I don't know if I answered your question.
This tirade as nothing to do with the Zimmerman case. Sure black americans are angry that they can't even walk around their neighbourhood without someone thinking they are "up to no good" but more fundamental is that Zimmerman's case proves that we can chase after anyone we want, for what ever reasons, racism, paranoia, for the lulz; then get in a fight with them and then shoot them dead and claim that it was self-defense and "stand your ground", get off scott free.
Also statements like "Our system of justice is the best in the world." is pretty close minded: there are plenty of other developed nations with arguably better judicial systems, for crying out loud we locked up thousands of people a year for smoking a joint!
And a statement like this one "African nations where there are no whites" is outstanding ignorance! Trust me as someone that live in Africa for Peace Corps, white people or "mzungus" are not non-existent in Africa, in some African countries they make up a decent sized minority and they do receive a lot of racism! More so racism is not an action, its a way of thinking! This is difficult for the racist to understand, hence why they always say stupid shit like "But my some of my best friends are X" because they think having a friend of another race somehow makes them not racists, yet they still would have a problem if their daughter married one, still have a problem with the principle of affirmative action, still lock their door when one passes by, etc, etc, fundamentally if you believe they are different from you and your "kind" in some general behavioural way, your a racist. Sure you might not be a lynching, burning cross kind of racist but those are a really the exceptions, most racists simply are apathetic to the plight of others not of their "kind" or have crazy ideas about what other peoples think or feel. If you believe they need to "reach out and take and hand" (what ever the fuck that means) I'm sure millions of them have in fact, upper class oreos and the like all the way to Obama! That does not mean they or all of us for that matter can't find it unfair-injust the way some people are treated by racists in this country.
As for your final question: Take Asain countries like China, Japan, Korea, these countries are extremely "racist" even though "racial" minority populations are almost non-existent: the few non-asains are treated horribly or like extraterrestrials. Having had so little contact with non-asains, non-asains are almost inhuman to them. I read a hilarious blog about a man encounters with Asain racism
Oh gosh, I just read that and I must be really upset over this. I only use the f word when I'm mad.
Sorry.
But anyway. That's how I feel.
Would Zimmerman have turned back home if as he inched closer he realized it was a white kid or a girl?
I think we know the answer and while we can't assume to know the mind of Zimmerman...considering that Martin did nothing wrong to start the following to begin with, should lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that he wanted to see if it was an African American kid and if it was...he'd keep following him.
That's how I see it.
And that is wrong. But he has to live with this. Ones conscience can sometimes weigh heavy over time.
Sorry.
But anyway. That's how I feel.
Would Zimmerman have turned back home if as he inched closer he realized it was a white kid or a girl?
I think we know the answer and while we can't assume to know the mind of Zimmerman...considering that Martin did nothing wrong to start the following to begin with, should lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that he wanted to see if it was an African American kid and if it was...he'd keep following him.
That's how I see it.
And that is wrong. But he has to live with this. Ones conscience can sometimes weigh heavy over time.
Agreed. Further, defending oneself from a murder charge is an expensive and daunting prospect. Thus if there are any other Zimmerman wannabes out there, they may well see what Zimmerman went through and think "wow, I better think twice about being the neighborhood Rambo; I don't want to spend time in jail, tens of thousands on lawyers etc." Hopefully that's one good thing that will come out of this.
The charges against Zimmerman were reduced and dropped if he took a “diversion” program. Zimmerman was never convicted. That is one reason why it was not introduced. Another is that courts, don’t want the accused’s past taint the juror’s decision. Just because he or she did something in the past, it doesn’t mean they are guilty of another crime. So that is why.
Yeah ...It sometimes takes tragedy to learn lessons.
What's not sitting well with me though is Z had a violent past?
Tired if typing out his name sorry.
This would lead one to think he's not learning much from his "mistakes."
Sorry.
I meant how did he legally get a gun? What questions are asked on a background check? If the guy was arrested for violence in the past...,that should cause anyone to not be granted a gun license. Another part of the broken "system."
Hope that better clarifies what I meant.
Well let’s hope that doesn’t happen. As my Mom used to say, two wrongs don’t make a right. And apparently the Stand Your Ground Legislation only applies to white folks. Marissa Alexander was sentenced to 20 years in jail for firing a bullet into the wall. She used the gun to save her life, but instead of shooting her husband, she shot the wall. I guess if she would have shot and killed her husband she could be a free woman. I don’t know, it is a strange situation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/marissa-alexander-gets-20_n_1530035.html
I guess if you are going to invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, you had better check your skin color first.
Yeah, that one is in fact a fucking travesty. How the fuck the jury could conclude that is beyond me. She didn't shoot him. She shot the fucking wall.
I can't say the basis: one of the fundamental problems of your legal system, without fixing which nothing else can possibly be fixed, is that it's a) adversarial and b) mercenarial. Without changing those facts, you'll have a bastard of a time making something that works fairly for everyone, no matter what else you do.
Wait: as in we get hounded through the streets with pitchforks and torches, or we have a loose societal mandate to capture locals and anally probe them? Because the one doesn't sound so bad, in practice.
racist.
I love whenever I'm watching one of those "Scared Straight" prison reality shows (the ones where they show troubled youths what it's like in prison), whenever they have some kid who's in the program because they were charged with "smoking cannabis, running away from home." They make these kids go stand in front of a bunch of semi-reformed convicts who yell and scream in their faces about what a mistake they're making and how brutally miserable they'll make life for these kids if they find them actually locked up one day. If they were made to yell about how much harm these kids were actually doing to society it would look comically absurd.
"You think you're such a tough guy, such a slick sneaky tough guy, stealing that big ol' chocolate bar, don't you? Wanna take a swing at me? Wanna spend the next 20 years stealing my chocolate bars, PUNK?!!!"
The "Fix" Is In
Well, you know how I keep saying the law and system in Florida worked exactly how it is supposed to? Sure, the racism is the most apparent part of that, but I must insist that equally, if not more important, is the notion of finding an excuse to kill someone.
That's what it's about.
To use Joe's expression:
And ... well ... yes. That's exactly it. Killing. And, generally speaking, by shooting another with a firearm; that's what SYG is for. Or, to borrow Attorney General Holder's phrasing: "These laws try to fix something that was never broken."
The big "fix" of SYG is that you don't actually have to be in real danger, anymore. You just have to be able to contrive the notion that you reasonably thought you were. The idea that it is problematic to require people to be in real danger before killing another person in self-defense tells us all we need to know about what these laws are for.
GeoffP said:
Well, you know how I keep saying the law and system in Florida worked exactly how it is supposed to? Sure, the racism is the most apparent part of that, but I must insist that equally, if not more important, is the notion of finding an excuse to kill someone.
That's what it's about.
To use Joe's expression:
"I guess if she would have shot and killed her husband she could be a free woman."
And ... well ... yes. That's exactly it. Killing. And, generally speaking, by shooting another with a firearm; that's what SYG is for. Or, to borrow Attorney General Holder's phrasing: "These laws try to fix something that was never broken."
The big "fix" of SYG is that you don't actually have to be in real danger, anymore. You just have to be able to contrive the notion that you reasonably thought you were. The idea that it is problematic to require people to be in real danger before killing another person in self-defense tells us all we need to know about what these laws are for.
Yes Geoff, those facts are the problem. Scapegoating is another problem and something Americans are easily goaded into.
Now, now when one is briefed by the American Military it is not called racism it is called ethnocentric.I spent about a year in South Korea they may have not liked me too much, but they did like my money.
He stopped him on the sidewalk. After following him and bothering him for some distance. In the middle of the night. For no apparent reason. How did he manage that? If you were Martin, would you have stopped on your own, without being accosted and your progress interfered with?russ said:
I don't believe that. Ten seconds would be reasonable guess, from the injuries.loraan said:
Tell you what: you wear a gun, I'll break your nose and beat your head on the sidewalk for a full minute, and if you can pull the gun while I straddle you after that I'll pay you fifty thousand dollars and cover your medical bills. Deal?
Zimmerman looked like he hit his head on one of those low tree branches the prosecutors never mentioned for some reason (the major cut was more on top), maybe after getting punched hard in the nose, and was taken down in the first place because the kid saw him pulling a gun. There was no forensic examination of the head wounds or crime scene that would settle this, of course, because he was not arrested.
The failure of the police to investigate the crime scene, interrogate the likely perpetrator, or establish the events leading up to the shooting, is of course a major factor - we agree that evidence a month later was scarce, the police having failed to do their jobs. But at the time the police knew for sure that an armed and angry full grown man had followed, accosted, fought with, and shot, an unarmed teenage kid committing no visible crime or misdemeanor. That overview alone is obviously enough to cast doubt on claims of self defense - an obvious aggressor is not entitled to automatic assumption of self defense or evidence-free belief in their claims of self defense.loraan said:
No, they don't. They and the evidence appear to show reasonable doubt that Zimmerman threw the first punch (and I don't think he did) but they do not show that Martin initiated any conversation or other "contact" of the kind Zimmerman was attempting to make prior to the event, and we have no reason to believe that the apparent and obvious take on things isn't the facts: Zimmerman was out of his truck chasing Martin down, and by the sound of the dispatch tapes he was angry and confrontational when he caught up with the kid. How does that not make sense?loraan said:
This whole thing persuades me that the defense got exactly the jury they wanted (a more inept prosecution I've never seen - they never even prepared their own witnesses? ) - a bunch of white women who've never been in a fight. If I'd been in that courtroom when Zimmerman said his head was pounded on concrete 25 times by a kid strong enough to take him down and pin him for a beating so fast he had no time to pull his gun, and then he pulled his gun while straddled and being beaten, I'd have laughed out loud.