Geneticists, biologists, & the impossible bio-"medical" models of "psychiatric disord

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

As explained by the author of the "Neanderthal Theory" of neurodiversity (www dot rdos dot net/eng/asperger.htm) in a thread at WrongPlanet (www dot wrongplanet dot net/postp1834736.html#1834736) hypotheses that go against everything that is known about genetics and biology are routinely accepted in "medical," "psychiatric," and psychological journals and other publications.

The underlying assumption of these hypotheses is an "impossible mutation model where deleterious mutations build up to form haplotypes and syndromes" which can "explain" autism "spectrum" "disorders." "It is impossible because it goes against evolutionary theory (survival of the fittest) and genetic models (fixation and genetic drift)."

"If a mutation exists long enough in the genome, it must either go towards fixation or get lost by genetic drift. If the mutation is positive, it has magnitudes higher chance of reaching fixation than a mutation that is neutral or negative. Therefore, few deleterious mutations with survive over time. Only new ones will, and they are not linked to each other" as is claimed. "The level of deleterious mutations is always kept low in the genome, much lower than the prevalence of most neuropsychiatric disorders."

Now this sounds very convincing to me, and in agreement with what I've heard about genetics, so if true why aren't geneticists, biologists, and various medical doctors screaming about the obvious, self-evident quackery and unethical treatments that go against the Hippocratic Oath (but not whatever Hypocritical Oath these Newspeak-speaking double-plus-good duckspeakers took)??? Reluctance to face the military-financial-psychiatric axis of evil and state terrorism?? Free country my large intestine. If you are even capable of independent thinking, you are "mentally ill."

As I see it, there are only two plausible explanations for autism. Both are based on environmental toxins. The difference is that one looks to chemical toxins, while the most likely explanation looks to social toxins that cause depression and complex post-traumatic assault and battery. Autistics are victims of violent crime, not disease. This was known before the truth was "discredited" through politically-motivated brainwashing by perps who wish to avoid responsibility.

We know that child abuse is rampant throughout America (and probably the world). We know that parental abuse may damage childrens' brains (agapepartners dot org/articles/72/1/Parental-Abuse-May-Damage-Childrens-Brain/Page1.html) Like, did we really need a study to show that in the first place???

Note: "newspeak," "double-plus-good," and "duckspeakers" are in the book 1984 by George Orwell.

Sorry about the "links." I don't make the rules or enforce them. And I'm not monkeying around with 20 posts on things I don't (or no longer) give a damn about when I'll probably be banned without explanation for some bizarre reason anyway. No doubt the above question is politically incorrect.

 

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

PS: The only geneticist I know of saying anything is George Church, a Harvard professor. He has a Youtube video. You'll have to find it yourselves as again, I cannot post anything but the most mangled links. It isn't worth even my worthless time at zero cents per hour to do so.

 

[origin]

If you are even capable of independent thinking, you are "mentally ill."

Bull shit

Autistics are victims of violent crime, not disease. This was known before the truth was "discredited" through politically-motivated brainwashing by perps who wish to avoid responsibility.

Bull shit

And I'm not monkeying around with 20 posts on things I don't (or no longer) give a damn about when I'll probably be banned without explanation for some bizarre reason anyway

No you won't be banned you will just be ignored if you post wild speculation and don't back it up with evidence.

No doubt the above question is politically incorrect.

Nah, it has nothing to do with politics - it is just your personal speculation without a shred of evidence to back it up.

Oh and welcome to the forum.

 

[wellwisher]

The underlying assumption of these hypotheses is an "impossible mutation model where deleterious mutations build up to form haplotypes and syndromes" which can "explain" autism "spectrum" "disorders." "It is impossible because it goes against evolutionary theory (survival of the fittest) and genetic models (fixation and genetic drift)."

"If a mutation exists long enough in the genome, it must either go towards fixation or get lost by genetic drift. If the mutation is positive, it has magnitudes higher chance of reaching fixation than a mutation that is neutral or negative. Therefore, few deleterious mutations with survive over time. Only new ones will, and they are not linked to each other" as is claimed. "The level of deleterious mutations is always kept low in the genome, much lower than the prevalence of most neuropsychiatric disorders."

There is another theory called cytoplasmic inheritance where certain factors outside the nucleus affect phenotype in a way not explained by Mendel's theory.

From Wikipedia:

Around 1900, Carl Correns used Mirabilis as a model organism for his studies on cytoplasmic inheritance. He used the plant's variegated leaves to prove that certain factors outside the nucleus affected phenotype in a way not explained by Mendel's theories.[2] Correns proposed that leaf color in Mirabilis was passed on via a uniparental mode of inheritance.[2]
Also, when red-flowered plants are crossed with white-flowered plants, pink-flowered offspring, not red, are produced. This is seen as an exception to Mendel's Law of Dominance, because in this case the red and white genes are of equal strength, so none completely dominates the other

Cytoplasmic inheritance is (from wikipedia):

Extranuclear inheritance is the transmission of genes that occur outside the nucleus. It is found in most eukaryotes and is commonly known to occur in cytoplasmic organelles such as mitochondria and chloroplasts or from cellular parasites like viruses or bacteria (1,2,3,7).

Extranuclear transmission of viral genomes and symbiotic bacteria is also possible. An example of viral genome transmission is perinatal transmission. This occurs from mother to fetus during the perinatal period, which begins before birth and ends about 1 month after birth. During this time viral material may be passed from mother to child in the bloodstream or breastmilk. This is of particular concern with mothers carrying HIV or Hepatitis C viruses (2,3). Examples of cytoplasmic symbiotic bacteria have also been found to be inherited in organisms such as insects and protists

Here is a theory, which I might add is not proven:

Say one was exposed to virus in their life, but get better. Some virus can remain dormant in the body, but appear at a later time in a modified form. For example, shingles is a virus that comes from Chicken Pox. Chicken Pox is a childhood disease, while shingles appears decades later often in people older than 50.

My theory is a latent virus from the past, is being awakened and transmitted by extranuclear transmission during pregnancy. This path would not follow the normal evolutionary paths, since it comes from outside the nucleus. It does not have to remain active for very long and might be missed after the fact.

 

[wynn]

As explained by the author of the "Neanderthal Theory" of neurodiversity (www dot rdos dot net/eng/asperger.htm) in a thread at WrongPlanet (www dot wrongplanet dot net/postp1834736.html#1834736) hypotheses that go against everything that is known about genetics and biology are routinely accepted in "medical," "psychiatric," and psychological journals and other publications.

There are psychologists and other individuals who believe, contrary to mainstream psychiatry, that phenomena that look like mental illness, are in fact phenomena of a spiritual awakening.

See, for example:

Bipolar or just waking up?

Spiritual Emergency: When Personal Transformation Becomes a Crisis:
"Increasing numbers of people involved in personal transformation are experiencing spiritual emergencies — crises when the process of growth and change becomes chaotic and overwhelming. Individuals experiencing such episodes may feel that their sense of identity is breaking down, that their old values no longer hold true, and that the very ground beneath their personal realities is radically shifting. In many cases, new realms of mystical and spiritual experience enter their lives suddenly and dramatically, resulting in fear and confusion. They may feel tremendous anxiety, have difficulty coping with their daily lives, jobs, and relationships, and may even fear for their own sanity.

Unfortunately, much of modern psychiatry has failed to distinguish these episodes from mental illness. As a result, transformational crises are often suppressed by routine psychiatric care, medication, and even institutionalization.

However, there is a new perspective developing among many mental health professionals and those studying spiritual development that views such crises as transformative breakthroughs that can hold tremendous potential for physical and emotional healing. When understood and treated in a supportive manner, spiritual emergencies can become gateways to higher levels of functioning and new ways of being."

 

[origin]

There are psychologists and other individuals who believe, contrary to mainstream psychiatry, that phenomena that look like mental illness, are in fact phenomena of a spiritual awakening.

See, for example:

Bipolar or just waking up?

Spiritual Emergency: When Personal Transformation Becomes a Crisis:
"Increasing numbers of people involved in personal transformation are experiencing spiritual emergencies — crises when the process of growth and change becomes chaotic and overwhelming. Individuals experiencing such episodes may feel that their sense of identity is breaking down, that their old values no longer hold true, and that the very ground beneath their personal realities is radically shifting. In many cases, new realms of mystical and spiritual experience enter their lives suddenly and dramatically, resulting in fear and confusion. They may feel tremendous anxiety, have difficulty coping with their daily lives, jobs, and relationships, and may even fear for their own sanity.

Unfortunately, much of modern psychiatry has failed to distinguish these episodes from mental illness. As a result, transformational crises are often suppressed by routine psychiatric care, medication, and even institutionalization.

However, there is a new perspective developing among many mental health professionals and those studying spiritual development that views such crises as transformative breakthroughs that can hold tremendous potential for physical and emotional healing. When understood and treated in a supportive manner, spiritual emergencies can become gateways to higher levels of functioning and new ways of being."

Really? You believe that? Yikes...:shrug:

 

[wellwisher]

I suppose, there are many examples of people being "born again", to use a common term, after living with compulsive disorders and addictions, that drive them downward physically, mentally and socially. Many will follow a spiraling downward path, until they bounce off the bottom and rebound into a different person with healthier drives. Sometimes it takes a couple of bounces to gain the activation energy for firmware change.

 

[James R]

It looks like the woo in the first post has been effectively countered by further woo in the first few replies.

Well done, guys!

 

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

There are psychologists and other individuals who believe, contrary to mainstream psychiatry, that phenomena that look like mental illness, are in fact phenomena of a spiritual awakening.

I am well aware of this. However, I doubt it describes those pathologized with "Asperger's Syndrome" ADD, and some other "disorders."

It probably works for many cases of "schizophrenia" and even to some extent some of those pathologized with "autism."

I don't doubt there are religious autistics, but the religions of neurotypicals who anthropomorphize everything has a tendency to drive them away.

 

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

There is another theory called cytoplasmic inheritance where certain factors outside the nucleus affect phenotype in a way not explained by Mendel's theory.

Genetics is no doubt complex. Mendel's theories do not explain everything. However using such theories as "cytoplasmic inheritance" to explain autism when there are so many, probably hundreds, if not thousands, of differences that are linked / correlated is just special pleading. A situation such as autism is statistically impossible without resorting to theories such as introgression from another species or speciation.

 

[wynn]

I am well aware of this. However, I doubt it describes those pathologized with "Asperger's Syndrome" ADD, and some other "disorders."

Why not? There have been psychiatrists, like RD Laing and Anthony Storr, who questioned the meaningfulness of psychiatric diagnoses, and instead suggested to focus on the symptoms that the person considered troubling, and working on those, rather than trying to push the person into some preconceived label.

It probably works for many cases of "schizophrenia" and even to some extent some of those pathologized with "autism."

And borderline, avoidant, and dependent personality disorders, narcissism, depression, bipolar, for example.

I don't doubt there are religious autistics, but the religions of neurotypicals who anthropomorphize everything has a tendency to drive them away.

What do you mean?

Do you mean that theists like Catholics are "neurotypicals"?

 

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

What do you mean?

Do you mean that theists like Catholics are "neurotypicals"?

Probably depends on what form theism takes. In both theism and pantheism, the god or gods seem to have many of the worst qualities of neurotypicals: jealous, arbitrary, judgmental, vengeful, etc.

 

[Aqueous Id]

When all is said here, the people who are sick and disadvantaged will be left to languish with little more than the determination of those medical science professionals who have chosen a career to search for cures. My thoughts and hopes are with them, that no matter what cynical, naive and frivolous reactions are posted here, they will succeed somehow, someday, as the world body of medical knowledge inches closer to better explanations for the causes and effects of various syndromes and the range of plausible interventions.

As for the way societies or institutions systematically victimize or discriminate against the disabled, contrast this belief against the actual attitude reflected in the findings of the US Congress as is was considering passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990:

The Congress finds that

(1) physical or mental disabilities in no way diminish a person’s right to fully participate in all aspects of society, yet many people with physical or mental disabilities have been precluded from doing so because of discrimination; others who have a record of a disability or are regarded as having a disability also have been subjected to discrimination;

(2) historically, society has tended to isolate and segregate individuals with disabilities, and, despite some improvements, such forms of discrimination against individuals with disabilities continue to be a serious and pervasive social problem;

(3) discrimination against individuals with disabilities persists in such critical areas as employment, housing, public accommodations, education, transportation, communication, recreation, institutionalization, health services, voting, and access to public services;

(4) unlike individuals who have experienced discrimination on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, individuals who have experienced discrimination on the basis of disability have often had no legal recourse to redress such discrimination;

(5) individuals with disabilities continually encounter various forms of discrimination, including outright intentional exclusion, the discriminatory effects of architectural, transportation, and communication barriers, overprotective rules and policies, failure to make modifications to existing facilities and practices, exclusionary qualification standards and criteria, segregation, and relegation to lesser services, programs, activities, benefits, jobs, or other opportunities;

(6) census data, national polls, and other studies have documented that people with disabilities, as a group, occupy an inferior status in our society, and are severely disadvantaged socially, vocationally, economically, and educationally;

(7) the Nation's proper goals regarding individuals with disabilities are to assure equality of opportunity, full participation, independent living, and economic self-sufficiency for such individuals; and

(8) the continuing existence of unfair and unnecessary discrimination and prejudice denies people with disabilities the opportunity to compete on an equal basis and to pursue those opportunities for which our free society is justifiably famous, and costs the United States billions of dollars in unnecessary expenses resulting from dependency and nonproductivity.

citing USC §12101(a).

And from there they go on to enact sweeping corrective action that brought not only visible changes like ramps, handrails and handicapped parking, but less obvious reforms in the way mentally and physically disadvantaged persons are treated in housing, employment and public services like transportation, education and recreation. I particularly like the phrases in bold text, because they assert that vigorous optimism that we all need if we are ever going to pull together as a team. Certainly this law is a milestone achievement in that direction.

I think I could sit here all day and find mission statements from health and public sector sites who fully endorse these findings, with their own special insights into how their clientele are harmed by discrimination, and similar sentiments reflected by scientific and medical sites that are actively involved in solving the problems the cynics are complaining about.

As for mental health issues, there are many kinds, and at least one of them is being demonstrated here in the cynical generalizations that disparage the very people who are trying to leave the world in a better state than it was when they came into it. The cynical commentaries display not activism but a radical chic guise to cover blatant fallacies and, evidently, underlying personality issues. The perpetual rant against "the mainstream", even when it has the best interests of disadvantaged people at heart, is an example at least of low-self esteem, if not also a pathological urge to lash out at any authority, probably due to deeper psychological issues that ought to be taken up in counseling by trained professionals.

In a word (or two):

Bull shit.

 

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

When all is said here, the people who are sick and disadvantaged will be left to languish with little more than the determination of those medical science professionals who have chosen a career to search for cures.

The attitudes of the National Socialist Third Reich Germany are alive and well in Fourth Reich AmeriKKKa.

the people who are sick and disadvantaged

Not succeeding, it isn't discrimination, your just sick -- more National Socialist Third Reich Germany / Fourth Reich AmeriKKKa rhetoric

no matter what cynical, naive and frivolous reactions are posted here

I'm a realist, not a cynic, let's keep the messages positive.

contrast this belief against the actual attitude reflected in the findings of the US Congress as is was considering passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990...

more gobbledegook

pathological urge to lash out at any authority

So political dissidents are just mentally ill. Psychiatry / disability programs are not about helping people, it is about using socialist / corporatist control tactics. Not any authority, those that confuse the issues and fail to respect fundamental rights -- which is just about all authority in America today.

The idea behind disease / disability is that difference is defect. All people are equal, but some are more equal than others. Unequal outcomes aren't necessarily unfair, except when the system is designed to stack the deck and generate those outcomes. This is very similar to the hate against those of African decent -- they are more chimp-like, mud people, etc. It is even worse because now they are anti-social workers and perpetrators. The only thing they learned is do unto others as was done unto us just a few decades ago.

probably due to deeper psychological issues that ought to be taken up in counseling by trained professionals

No, due to sociological issues that ought to be taken up in protest by political activists. Soviet / National Socialist tactics are not the answer.

 

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

About half the people on this forum aren't capable of saying something other than a word like "bullshit." Or crap that amounts to the same thing.

At least they are capable of eight-letter words.

And James R, what about the woo of the average parent of autistic children? Have you ever noticed how these people behave and think themselves? Can you imagine spending nine months as a fetus in the womb of the likes of Alison Singer or Suzanne Wright? What would that would have done to your development?

 

[wynn]

I have heard that there is a correlation between both parents being technically- / scientifically-minded and the greater possibility of their child being autistic.

 

[wynn]

About half the people on this forum aren't capable of saying something other than a word like "bullshit." Or crap that amounts to the same thing.

*tsk tsk*

Playing with people's reactance is ... not so good.

:m:

 

[40AcresMule40kyrsint]

I have heard that there is a correlation between both parents being technically- / scientifically-minded and the greater possibility of their child being autistic.

Systemizing enough to procreate a neurodiverse individual, not enough to actually have the same instincts and not have a species-to-species language barrier -- at least in most cases.

*tsk tsk*

Playing with people's reactance is ... not so good.

:m:

And the reactance of some such as, but not limited to "origin"? Three or four magnitudes worse -- at least.

 

[origin]

So you object to my forceful response. Fine then let me present my questions is a more level tone.

Autistics are victims of violent crime, not disease.

I think this is incorrect. What evidence do you have to back up this idea?

This was known before the truth was "discredited" through politically-motivated brainwashing by perps who wish to avoid responsibility.

What evidence do you have that the this was known to be true and what evidence do you have that this truth was brainwashed from people by politics.

Just copy any links as text to the research that shows the evidence to support your claims.

 

[Aqueous Id]

The attitudes of the National Socialist Third Reich Germany are alive and well in Fourth Reich AmeriKKKa.

What Nazi or Klan elements are you referring to? Who are these people and where are they? What do hate groups have to do with the search for the causes and cures of autism or other brain or mental disorders? How does the ADA evoke images of Nazi-Klan elements in your mind?

By the way, count the members of the Supreme Court who are ethnically representative of the KKK in AmeriKKKa. There are only nine of them, so it isn't that hard for such an informed activist as yourself to get to the root of that issue.

Not succeeding, it isn't discrimination, your just sick -- more National Socialist Third Reich Germany / Fourth Reich AmeriKKKa rhetoric

If you are associating me with Nazism or the Klan for speaking on the behalf of compassionate medical and science professionals who tend to patients and their illnesses, then you should indeed seek counseling. You have more than just a screw loose, and you need to get it fixed.

I'm a realist, not a cynic, let's keep the messages positive.

Having just characterized my speech as Nazi-Klan rhetoric (for defense of the ADA, for example) is about as negative as it gets, worse than cynical, and a denial of reality. You fail on all counts.

So political dissidents are just mentally ill.

You have already failed on one the tests for pathological personality traits, which is the tendency to express hatred and lash out randomly at other people.

That trait has nothing to with politics or dissidence, although in the denial stage you may experience delusions of grandeur, for example, you may feel you are reliving the experiences of a martyred hero.

Psychiatry / disability programs are not about helping people, it is about using socialist / corporatist control tactics.

So the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) or the Civil Rights Act, upon which it is founded, are Nazi-KKK-corporatist-socialist control tactics?

Oh really? So you would have the crippled person still crawling up the steps to get to court, like was the case before the ADA? And that's not a Nazi tactic?

And the corporations, who had to spend billions to comply with ADA requirements: they sponsored that law, so that it would cost them all of that money? :shrug:

So far you are only displaying reckless contempt for anything that moves. That seems pathological.

Not any authority, those that confuse the issues and fail to respect fundamental rights -- which is just about all authority in America today.

Not any authority...just about all authority? :shrug:

The idea behind disease / disability is that difference is defect.

The idea behind the ADA is that mistreatment of a disabled people on account of disability is a violation of their civil rights, for which they can recover damages and, in some cases, press criminal charges. This means the "just about all authority in America" you refer to are standing on the side of the disabled and supporting their efforts to achieve equality. This exemplifies why your generalized attack falls flat on its face.

All people are equal, but some are more equal than others.

The law expressly forbids hate crimes against the disabled. Yet you appear to attack this law. Inequality is addressed in the Constitution, the Civil Rights Act, and numerous statutes and cases in the federal, state and local level. And your point is ....?

Unequal outcomes aren't necessarily unfair, except when the system is designed to stack the deck and generate those outcomes.

What system are you referring to, and what about it demonstrates design? In US law, the process is evolved, generally under pressure from dissidents. Among those dissident laws you are lashing out against are the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, the amendments that followed the insurrection and Civil War, the voting rights amendments, and countless improvements including the Civil Rights Acts and the ADA. How does that "design" deserve a criticism of "stacking the deck"?

This is very similar to the hate against those of African decent -- they are more chimp-like, mud people, etc.

Where are you encountering anti-African (or African-American) hate speech? As I look around I see blacks in uniform, sitting in positions of government and presiding over courts of law. It doesn't seem the hate speech you refer to is getting very far. You would need to give an example if you are speaking of some specific incident. Or is it imagined?

It is even worse because now they are anti-social workers and perpetrators. The only thing they learned is do unto others as was done unto us just a few decades ago.

What are "anti-social workers and perpetrators"? Who are "they" -- and "us"?
What was done just a few decades ago, to whom, and what is being done to whom as a result?

No, due to sociological issues that ought to be taken up in protest by political activists. Soviet / National Socialist tactics are not the answer.

What sociological issues are you referring to, and what is stopping political activism or protesting? What do you know about Soviet or Nazi tactics, or what does any of that have to do with treatment of people with mental or physical disabilities?

So far you have only made random generalizations, without any focus on a specific kind of harm, its cause, and without offering a proposed solution. Even if you have a valid gripe (which I doubt) you can get nowhere without clarity, tempered speech, focus and a plan of action.