Hey just found this while trawling through Science.
I did not know dogs originated in Asia. Fraggle should know more about this.
original article (requires access)
news article
Genetic Evidence for South Asian origin of dogs
- Thread starter S.A.M.
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Hey just found this while trawling through Science.
I did not know dogs originated in Asia. Fraggle should know more about this.
original article (requires access)
news article
That's quite intriguing. Have they managed to narrow it down further than "East Asia"? Is it in China? Mongolia? Siberia?
Based on the breeds they suspect China.
Fascinating. Thank you for sharing this.
Yes, We've known this for three years now, but it is East Asia. Why are you saying South Asia?
Dr. Elaine A. Ostrander is at the forefront of this field in genetic research with canids. I refer you to her original groundbreaking article, "Genetic Structure of the Pure Bred Dog," Science, Vol. 304, 21 May 2004. It was free to download for quite a long time, but I don't think that you can access the entire article anymore.
This article is extremely important because her team managed to cluster assign 85 dog breeds into a phylogenetic structure. The wolf populations at the root of the tree consists of eight individuals, one from each of the following countries: China, Oman, Iran, Sweden, Italy, Mexico and the United States. No dog subspecies has ever originated in the Americas. To briefly summarize, the following dog species genetically cluster around the most earliest wolf ancestral species. I have listed them in ancestral order. In other words, the Chow Chow, a breed originally from China, is considered the most ancestral breed, etc.:
Chow Chow
Chinese Shar-Pei
Shiba Inu
Alaskan Malamute
Siberian Husky
Samoyed
Afghan Hound
Saluki
Basenji
Tibetan Terrier
Lhaso Apso
Pekingese
Shih Tzu
Bichon Frise
Komondor
Kuvaaz
Keeshound
Norwegian Elkhound
If you are interested in this subject, I also refer you to the article, "Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic dog" by Vila, Caries et al.: http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm Their team sequenced wolves, coyotes and domestic dogs with one conclusion being that dogs have been domesticated for at least 100,000 years:
"Mitochondrial DNA control region sequences were analyzed from 162 wolves at 27 localities worldwide and from 140 domestic dogs representing 67 breeds. Sequences from both dogs and wolves showed considerable diversity and supported the hypothesis that wolves were the ancestors of dogs. Most dog sequences belonged to a divergent monophyletic clade sharing no sequences with wolves. The sequence divergence within this clade suggested that dogs originated more than 100,000 years before the present. Associations of dog haplotypes with other wolf lineages indicated episodes of a mixture between wolves and dogs. Repeated genetic exchange between dog and wolf populations may have been an important source of variation for artificial selection."
Dr. Elaine A. Ostrander is at the forefront of this field in genetic research with canids. I refer you to her original groundbreaking article, "Genetic Structure of the Pure Bred Dog," Science, Vol. 304, 21 May 2004. It was free to download for quite a long time, but I don't think that you can access the entire article anymore.
This article is extremely important because her team managed to cluster assign 85 dog breeds into a phylogenetic structure. The wolf populations at the root of the tree consists of eight individuals, one from each of the following countries: China, Oman, Iran, Sweden, Italy, Mexico and the United States. No dog subspecies has ever originated in the Americas. To briefly summarize, the following dog species genetically cluster around the most earliest wolf ancestral species. I have listed them in ancestral order. In other words, the Chow Chow, a breed originally from China, is considered the most ancestral breed, etc.:
Chow Chow
Chinese Shar-Pei
Shiba Inu
Alaskan Malamute
Siberian Husky
Samoyed
Afghan Hound
Saluki
Basenji
Tibetan Terrier
Lhaso Apso
Pekingese
Shih Tzu
Bichon Frise
Komondor
Kuvaaz
Keeshound
Norwegian Elkhound
If you are interested in this subject, I also refer you to the article, "Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic dog" by Vila, Caries et al.: http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm Their team sequenced wolves, coyotes and domestic dogs with one conclusion being that dogs have been domesticated for at least 100,000 years:
"Mitochondrial DNA control region sequences were analyzed from 162 wolves at 27 localities worldwide and from 140 domestic dogs representing 67 breeds. Sequences from both dogs and wolves showed considerable diversity and supported the hypothesis that wolves were the ancestors of dogs. Most dog sequences belonged to a divergent monophyletic clade sharing no sequences with wolves. The sequence divergence within this clade suggested that dogs originated more than 100,000 years before the present. Associations of dog haplotypes with other wolf lineages indicated episodes of a mixture between wolves and dogs. Repeated genetic exchange between dog and wolf populations may have been an important source of variation for artificial selection."
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Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
I saw a report of what may have been the same research in (I think) the Smithsonian magazine about five years ago. I remember that my Lhasa Apsos were found to be one of the oldest breeds. And also that the original population of dogs was identified in central China by the fact that the wolves who still live there have the most similar DNA to dogs. I have mentioned this in my postings on a number of threads.
I did not get the 100,000 year timeline. All the sources I've run across since then put the date at around 13000BCE, which was the tail end of the Mesolithic Era. I have hypothesized that this was no coincidence. I saw the ability of humans to welcome dogs into their tribes as a precursor to feeling comfortable in the presence of other human tribes, something that was counterinstinctive for hunter-gatherers who had to guard their hunting-gathering area against intruders but was essential to the founding of villages and later, cities. I have also posted this hypothesis in numerous places.
If dogs self-domesticated (they could not have been domesticated by humans because there's no archeological evidence of our invention of the technology of animal husbandry until the Neolithic) a hundred thousand years ago, you'd think there would be abundant evidence of it in the archeological record and somebody would have been asking these questions a long time ago.
What 100,000 year timeline? The paper mentions 15,000 years.
edit: Just realised you meant valichs paper, not mine.
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If Chow Chows are supposed to be most ancient, why don't they look more like wolves?
The undisputable fact is that dogs have been domesticated for at least 100,000 years. However, most of the 400 or so distinct breeds today have been bred within the last 300 years.
I stand behind Dr. Elaine A. Ostrander's groundbreaking work. She has devoted her whole life to these studies more than anyone else and is the foremost authority in the field. She works with a large integrated team at the Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and the University of Washington in Seattle, directly tied to and supported by numerous funds from the AKC Canine Health Foundation that itself is supported by numerous funding projects from individual national breed associations. Do a quick google on her efforts and you will see how much she has contributed to the advancement in the field of genetic canine research.
Why Chow Chows do not look like wolves? Because you cannot confuse the morphological phenotype with the evolutionary genotype. The entire Tree of Life is now being restructured and revolutionized as we switch from the previous ribosomal RNA dating techniques to the more accurate genome-wide DNA sequence data. Don't confuse the phenotype (outward physical appearance) with the genotype (evolutionary DNA sequence). Do you realize how many genes humans share with a fruit fly (Drosophila melanogaster) and how similar our genomes are to mice and rats?
I stand behind Dr. Elaine A. Ostrander's groundbreaking work. She has devoted her whole life to these studies more than anyone else and is the foremost authority in the field. She works with a large integrated team at the Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and the University of Washington in Seattle, directly tied to and supported by numerous funds from the AKC Canine Health Foundation that itself is supported by numerous funding projects from individual national breed associations. Do a quick google on her efforts and you will see how much she has contributed to the advancement in the field of genetic canine research.
Why Chow Chows do not look like wolves? Because you cannot confuse the morphological phenotype with the evolutionary genotype. The entire Tree of Life is now being restructured and revolutionized as we switch from the previous ribosomal RNA dating techniques to the more accurate genome-wide DNA sequence data. Don't confuse the phenotype (outward physical appearance) with the genotype (evolutionary DNA sequence). Do you realize how many genes humans share with a fruit fly (Drosophila melanogaster) and how similar our genomes are to mice and rats?
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Just like your indisputable fact that dogs and wolves roll in carcasses to hide their own scent? Get over yourself. $10 says that after approximately 5 pages of inane banter and pseudo-discussion, valich will change his tune and will begin to spout Fraggle and Sam's (paper's) numbers as his own.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
A hundred thousand years ago... There were not yet any Homo sapiens outside of Africa. So this multi-species community was dogs and an earlier hominid. Then when sapiens took over the dogs hung with us.
They're more tolerant than we are.
They're more tolerant than we are.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Unless the branching off of the "dog" subspecies had nothing to do with contact with humans. They may have just found a tenuous ecological niche and stayed in China until we came along and took them everywhere we went.
That starts to make sense. The very few differences between Canis lupus lupus and Canis lupus familiaris have been interpreted as traits that were selected for compatibility with human society. Dogs have teeth that are slightly better suited to the life of a scavenger than a hunter, they have slightly smaller brains to thrive on the lower-protein diet of a scavenger, and they have a more gregarious instinct than wolves, allowing them to live in peace and comfort in our much larger packs.
If the first population of dogs indeed lived without the company of humans, they must have encountered a peculiar environment for these adaptations to have served them well in the wild. I wonder if we'll ever know how long they hung on in China before they encountered humans and we both liked what we saw? If there really is a slight but discernable difference in the shape of the teeth and the brain pan, you'd think we could distinguish between the remains of dogs and wolves and date their human-aided diaspora to the rest of the planet.
So are we to take this 100,000 year history seriously? Some of you people are real scientists. Help the rest of us out here.
That starts to make sense. The very few differences between Canis lupus lupus and Canis lupus familiaris have been interpreted as traits that were selected for compatibility with human society. Dogs have teeth that are slightly better suited to the life of a scavenger than a hunter, they have slightly smaller brains to thrive on the lower-protein diet of a scavenger, and they have a more gregarious instinct than wolves, allowing them to live in peace and comfort in our much larger packs.
If the first population of dogs indeed lived without the company of humans, they must have encountered a peculiar environment for these adaptations to have served them well in the wild. I wonder if we'll ever know how long they hung on in China before they encountered humans and we both liked what we saw? If there really is a slight but discernable difference in the shape of the teeth and the brain pan, you'd think we could distinguish between the remains of dogs and wolves and date their human-aided diaspora to the rest of the planet.
So are we to take this 100,000 year history seriously? Some of you people are real scientists. Help the rest of us out here.
"“The earth trembled and a great rift appeared, separating the first man and woman from the rest of the animal kingdom. As the chasm grew deeper and wider, all other creatures, afraid for their lives, returned to the forest - except for the dog who after much consideration, leapt the perilous rift to stay with the humans on the other side. His love for humanity was greater than his bond for other creatures, and he willingly forfeited his place in paradise to prove it.” Native Indian Folklore
Dogs were domesticated from ancestral wolves 100,000 yrs ago, but the lineage of dogs today dates back 15,000 years. Almost all breeds today were artificially breeded through selection within the last 300 years: due to very intensive selective breeding. The selection process to domesticate dogs is called paedomorphism: the selection of individuals within a species that have juvenile characteristics, docile friendly behavior, soft fuzzy fur, round torsos, large head and large eyes (like Mickey Mouse), loppy ears that hang down, etc. Paedomorphism is a phylogenetic change in which the adults of a species retain traits previously seen only in the juveniles (see also neoteny & progenisis).
Dogs were domesticated from ancestral wolves 100,000 yrs ago, but the lineage of dogs today dates back 15,000 years. Almost all breeds today were artificially breeded through selection within the last 300 years: due to very intensive selective breeding. The selection process to domesticate dogs is called paedomorphism: the selection of individuals within a species that have juvenile characteristics, docile friendly behavior, soft fuzzy fur, round torsos, large head and large eyes (like Mickey Mouse), loppy ears that hang down, etc. Paedomorphism is a phylogenetic change in which the adults of a species retain traits previously seen only in the juveniles (see also neoteny & progenisis).
THE EVOLUTION OF THE DOG - TIMELINE:
220 million years ago the group Eucynodonts (meaning "true dog teeth") evolved. Eucynodonts include mammals and mammal-like Therapsids, such as the Cynodonts (meaning "dog teeth"):
Order Therapsidae: Suborder Cynodontia: Family Cynognathidae: Genus Cynognathus
150-200 million years ago mammals diversified into four major groups: multituberculates (all extinct), monotremes (platypus), marsupials (kangaroos), and Eutheria (Placentals).
Placental mammals include:
1. Archonta (primates, bats, treeshrews)
2. Anagalida (rodents, mice, rats)
3. Carnivora (Canidae: wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals; Ursidae: bears; Felidae: cats; and raccoons, skunks, and seals)
4. Ungulates (Artiodactyla and other “hoofed” animals)
85-95 million years ago the Eutheria lineage (also called Boreoeutheria) split into the Euarchontoglires and Laurasiatheria lineages. Euarchontoglires include rodents, mice, rats, primates and humans: Laurasiatheria include Carnivora (meat eaters) and Artiodactyla (deer, elk, llamas, goats, sheep, cattle, camels, giraffe, pigs, and hippos).
50 million years ago Canidae (wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals) evolved from Carnivora. Also, 50 million years ago whales evolved – went back to the ocean - from land mammals (from Artiodactyla). Today’s hippo is the closest living relative to the whale.
DOGS:
50 million years ago (the Eocene epoch): The earlist canids can be linked to Eocene Miacids. Miacids evolved into Feloidea (cat-like) and Canoidea (dog-like) carnivores. The canoid lineage leading from the coyote-sized Mesocyon of the Oligocene (38 to 24 million years ago) to the fox-like Leptocyon and the wolf-like Tomarctus that roamed North America some 10 million years ago.
40 million years ago (mid-Eocene epoch): “Dawn dogs” or “bear dogs” appeared in North America and Eurasia. They are the earliest known type of dog and had long muzzles with low slung bodies. A species very similar to and resembling dawn dogs still lives in Eurasia, called the raccoon dog.
35 million years ago (late Eocene epoch): the first known Arctoid called Cynodictis evolved. These were still undifferentiated bear-dogs.
30 million years ago (early Oligocene epoch): A later Arctoid called Hesperocyon evolved. Compared to the Eocene Miacids, like the Paroodectes. Its limbs were more elongated, carnassials were more specialized, and it had a much larger braincase. From here, the main line of canid (dog) evolution can be traced, with bears branching out into a Holarctic distribution.
5-25 million years ago (Miocene epoch): The dog lineage continued through to Tomarctus: the true ancestor of the modern day dog. From the time of Tomarctus, dog-like carnivores expanded throughout the world.
5 million years ago (late Miocene epoch): Foxes diverged from the Canidae lineage.
3-5 million years ago (Pliocene epoch): The first true dog emerged, called Cynodesmus.
10,000 - 1,800,000 years ago (Pleistocene epoch): The dog lineage continued through to modern day dogs, wolves, & foxes, Canidae and Canis familiarus (dogs). Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html
220 million years ago the group Eucynodonts (meaning "true dog teeth") evolved. Eucynodonts include mammals and mammal-like Therapsids, such as the Cynodonts (meaning "dog teeth"):
150-200 million years ago mammals diversified into four major groups: multituberculates (all extinct), monotremes (platypus), marsupials (kangaroos), and Eutheria (Placentals).
Placental mammals include:
1. Archonta (primates, bats, treeshrews)
2. Anagalida (rodents, mice, rats)
3. Carnivora (Canidae: wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals; Ursidae: bears; Felidae: cats; and raccoons, skunks, and seals)
4. Ungulates (Artiodactyla and other “hoofed” animals)
85-95 million years ago the Eutheria lineage (also called Boreoeutheria) split into the Euarchontoglires and Laurasiatheria lineages. Euarchontoglires include rodents, mice, rats, primates and humans: Laurasiatheria include Carnivora (meat eaters) and Artiodactyla (deer, elk, llamas, goats, sheep, cattle, camels, giraffe, pigs, and hippos).
50 million years ago Canidae (wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals) evolved from Carnivora. Also, 50 million years ago whales evolved – went back to the ocean - from land mammals (from Artiodactyla). Today’s hippo is the closest living relative to the whale.
DOGS:
50 million years ago (the Eocene epoch): The earlist canids can be linked to Eocene Miacids. Miacids evolved into Feloidea (cat-like) and Canoidea (dog-like) carnivores. The canoid lineage leading from the coyote-sized Mesocyon of the Oligocene (38 to 24 million years ago) to the fox-like Leptocyon and the wolf-like Tomarctus that roamed North America some 10 million years ago.
40 million years ago (mid-Eocene epoch): “Dawn dogs” or “bear dogs” appeared in North America and Eurasia. They are the earliest known type of dog and had long muzzles with low slung bodies. A species very similar to and resembling dawn dogs still lives in Eurasia, called the raccoon dog.
35 million years ago (late Eocene epoch): the first known Arctoid called Cynodictis evolved. These were still undifferentiated bear-dogs.
30 million years ago (early Oligocene epoch): A later Arctoid called Hesperocyon evolved. Compared to the Eocene Miacids, like the Paroodectes. Its limbs were more elongated, carnassials were more specialized, and it had a much larger braincase. From here, the main line of canid (dog) evolution can be traced, with bears branching out into a Holarctic distribution.
5-25 million years ago (Miocene epoch): The dog lineage continued through to Tomarctus: the true ancestor of the modern day dog. From the time of Tomarctus, dog-like carnivores expanded throughout the world.
5 million years ago (late Miocene epoch): Foxes diverged from the Canidae lineage.
3-5 million years ago (Pliocene epoch): The first true dog emerged, called Cynodesmus.
10,000 - 1,800,000 years ago (Pleistocene epoch): The dog lineage continued through to modern day dogs, wolves, & foxes, Canidae and Canis familiarus (dogs). Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html
Homo habilis evolved in Africa around two million years ago and members of the genus migrated out of Africa somewhat later, at least 1.5 million years ago. The descendants of these ancient migrants probably included Homo erectus. "Peking Man" in China (Homo erectus pekinensis) is an example of Homo erectus. The finds have been dated from roughly 250,000-400,000 years ago in the Pleistocene. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_man
If you read all my posts on the "Dog's Roll in Carcasses" thread, you would know that I am very openminded about it and I am searching for the facts. And no one has yet to give them. Does your idle mind have a problem with that? Get over your criticism and join ScienceForum.
If you read all my posts on the "Dog's Roll in Carcasses" thread, you would know that I am very openminded about it and I am searching for the facts. And no one has yet to give them. Does your idle mind have a problem with that? Get over your criticism and join ScienceForum.
I have been here longer than yourself, valich. By more than two years, to be more precise. Just because I don't open my mouth and make a mundane post every time some silly thought comes to my head does not mean I don't contribute to this community. In the other thread, you started off saying that the indisputable reason that dogs roll in carrion is to hide their own scent. Then, after you couldn't back it up, and you found in the literature that you weren't correct, you changed your opinion. Why the initial head-strongedness?
Oh, and clever use of my moniker by the way. You really taught me what's what. I can't believe I walked right into that brilliant observation.
Oh, and clever use of my moniker by the way. You really taught me what's what. I can't believe I walked right into that brilliant observation.
So, you're claiming that the dog was first domesticated by Homo Erectus or Homo Habilis?
Are you spamming some other site?
Because this was "common knowledge." Verified by officials from the National Park Service up in Alaska and one of my profs. And I apologized for my mistake many times. So, Yes! I learned something too. What else do you want, blood?
We still do not know the exact reasons why Canidae scent-roll. And we definitely do not know why bears scent-roll. Ursidae (bears) are not pack animals.
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I don't care about that anymore. I'm commenting on your attitude. You are taking the same attitude here that you were taking in the early stages of that other topic. You are correct, and there is no disputing what you have said. You were wrong there, and you're likely wrong here. So, what have you learned, exactly?