gender selected children

[fuzzywuz]

thanks for the good response, Pete. Please note a total disagreement over one point in particular: the role of the vaginal mucous. Since the Billings Method is totally about the vaginal mucous I have to get this straightened out.

So here's what I am gonna do.....I am gonna call an expert on the Billings Method and ask that expert to answer this question: does the secretion of mucous (whose terminus is observed at the vaginal lips) assist the egg flow intot he Fallopian tubes, or is the mucous soley for sperm motility?

I said clearly above that the mucous is to get the egg to flow. It ALSO plays an important part by affecting the sperm in the vaginal. But if I am wrong on the egg flow idea, I gotta eat crow it seems. Cause in my experience GRAVITY is the major player in all this....that's why I say the liquid must be involved in the egg movement.

Now, Pete, if I am right....I am gonna want you to go back and look at those clinincal results about the timing of sex....cause they seem invalid because they are ignorant
of what's really going on....

so I am holding my breath on this one...and don't feel too confidant because it seems the vaginal is prolly the place where the mucous could come from, and I haven't a clue where else the mucous could be coming from? ....back soon

 

[CharonZ]

Mucus (or rather estrogenic type cervical mucus) is primarily needed for the transport of sperms to the ovum. As it is produced in the cervix IMO it shouldn't play a role for the transport of the ovars.
As such there is clearly a connection between mucus secretion and fertility.
See for instance:

Regarding mucus and fertility:
------------
Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 2005 Sep 7; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Cervical mucus secretions on the day of intercourse: An accurate marker of highly fertile days.

Scarpa B, Dunson DB, Colombo B.

Department of Applied Statistics and Economics, University of Pavia, Pavia, Italy.

OBJECTIVE:: To provide estimates of the probabilities of conception according to vulvar mucus observations classified by the woman on the day of intercourse. STUDY DESIGN:: Prospective cohort study of 193 outwardly healthy Italian women using the Billings Ovulation Method. Outcome measures include 161 conception cycles and 2594 non-conception cycles with daily records of the type of mucus and the occurrences of sexual intercourse. RESULTS:: The probability of conception ranged from 0.003 for days with no noticeable secretions to 0.29 for days with most fertile-type mucus detected by the woman. The probability of most fertile type mucus by day of the menstrual cycle increased from values <20% outside of days 10-17 to a peak of 59% on day 13. CONCLUSION:: Regardless of the timing of intercourse in the menstrual cycle, the probability of conception is essentially 0 on days with no secretions. This probability increases dramatically to near 30% on days with most fertile-type mucus, an association that accurately predicts both the timing of the fertile interval and the day-specific conception probabilities across the menstrual cycle.
--------

As such I don't think that there is any indications that this has any influence on gender. Otherwise Pete appears to be more knowledgable on this subject.

 

[fuzzywuz]

well those stats show good news for Billings et al.

but, (am I correct in observing...) you do not show any evidence mucous is NOT in fact related to the presentation of the egg in the tubes. You merely show how mucous inter-relates with sperm efficacy.

so...I am still on hold on the critical matter. I sent an email to Dr. Billings asking for a clarification and/or confirmation/correction of my earlier remarks linking Gravity and bodily liquids to the movement of the egg - and hence providing the opportunity for gender selection based on differences in sperm "swimming" abilities. Hope she gets back soon......

 

[fuzzywuz]

Yo bros! I just remembered something to substantiate my opinion. When the egg breaks free from either ovary and begins its journey to the tube (how the hell do you think it gets there? gotta be gravity. and a liquid to move it.) a small amount of blood is released, sort of like tearing a grape off a cluster.

that blood spot shows up in the woman's panty. She can feel the separation of the egg as a small but sharp pain, if she is alert enough. The blood spot will show up soon after. There IS a flow of liquid !! proof ! this is why gynecologists are regularly a week to two weeks off in predicting the date of the birth - because they cannot pinpoint the moment of ovualtion.

P.S. sent another email to the US office of Billings...might get help there too.
and thanks guys for making this fun.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

the Billings Method has 30+ years of clinical documentation...it is very highly reliable. So don't start maligning it by lumping it in with some other group(s). The Billings Method stands alone and apart.

OKay, I shouldn't have made that wise-crack about "real science".

But, the Billings Method can be lumped with other “natural” contraception methods as it relies, like all the other methods, on the combined will power and motivation of the couple. Strict adherence is required. If (and it’s a very big “if”) the Billings Method is adhered to properly, then I am prepared to believe that it is reliable. I imagine that those “30+ years of clinical documentation” concentrate on data sets involving couples who stick to the program. What percentage of couples who attempt the Billings Method fail to apply it correctly, or "drop out", with a resulting pregnancy? That’s the true measure of its effectiveness.

So Herc, you have been initially rebutted because: a) you lumped Billings Method with other methods,

See above.

2) YOU provided no scientific evidence

Ummmm dude, you’re the one who is making an unsupported claim about engineering the sex of a child. Do you know what the phrase “burden of proof” means? You made the claim; you have to support it with references. It’s not my job to disprove something for which there is (apparantly) no supporting evidence in the first place.

3) you used a fallacious argument by summarily condemming it.

I see. You’re lecturing me on logical fallacies, then proceed to say this....

what type of Scientist are you buy the way Hercules? geneticist? Some kind of medical profession that hopes to make its bux from the pharmaceutical industry? the Billings Method has no pay off there....so that's why I suspect you are maligning it so speciously.

....which presents logical fallacies on a few different fronts.

I have explained how it can be used to select gender. Where is your problem with that?

My problem is a simple one. I was merely asking for a scientific reference(s) to substantiate your claim that you can engineer the sex of babies, which you have so far studiously failed to deliver. You have provided a personal anecdote, but we all know that doesn’t count. If you do manage to provide a scientific reference to substantiate your claim, I will read it with great interest and thank you politely for fulfilling my request. <P>

 

[fuzzywuz]

thanks for the good job there.
I'll see what I can find off the lady doctor's page....scientific evidence is kinda funny, slippery (no pun re the mucous thing)....I could use ironclad logic. How can you deny ironclad logic???

Statement: "if differences in sperm swim rates can be controlled by controlling the viscosity of the mucous they must swim through, then it should be entirely possible to determine which sperm type reaches the egg first."

can you deny that?

also, do you or do you not work in a gynecological enviornment where the Billings Method is viewed as an unwanted competitor?

 

[fuzzywuz]

the Pill is highly effective, if the blondes remember to take it.
abstinece works pretty good too, if the legs stay crossed.

jsut about anything can get SNAFU'd.

I've seen sterilization fail !! no kidding.

 

[Pete]

Hi fuzzywuz,
The passage of the egg might well be gravity assisted.

But I think that for the Billings method, the actual biological role of the mucous is beside the point - it's role in the Billings method is simply for determining when you're fertile, right?

if differences in sperm swim rates can be controlled by controlling the viscosity of the mucous they must swim through, then it should be entirely possible to determine which sperm type reaches the egg first.

Firstly, I don't think the Billings method is about controlling your mucous, it's about observing it. Isn't it??

Secondly, I have the impression that the difference between XX sperm and XY sperm isn't as clear-cut as is sometimes suggested.
It's a bit like sorting male and female adults based on a running race. Generally speaking, it is true that males tend to be faster runners than females, right?

So. Take a random group of people, and have them run a kilometre.
Now divide them in half based on their times to complete the course.
If your group is large enough and randomly selected, you''re very likely to have more males in the faster half, and more females in the slower half, right? But, it's not a perfect division. There will still be plenty of females in the fast half, and plenty of males in the slow half.

A similar argument applies for sorting according to lifespan. Female sperm tend to live longer, as do female adults... but does this make it a reliable sorting method?


I don't know for sure. I'd like to know what the actual speed and lifespan distributions of XX and XY sperm are in media of various viscosities and PH levels, then perhaps I can draw some properly informed conclusions.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

thanks for the good job there. I'll see what I can find off the lady doctor's page....

Well, you don’t have to do anything on my account. I’ll stop being so difficult about it. But I was being genuine when I said that, although I’m still very skeptical, I would find any references interesting.

do you or do you not work in a gynecological enviornment where the Billings Method is viewed as an unwanted competitor?

No, not in any way. I am a developmental biologist/geneticist who works in academia, not in any commercial setting. My interest lies in what happens after the sperm and ovum get together, not the reproductive biology of how they get together in the first place.

just about anything can get SNAFU'd.

Yes, your point is well taken. Every form of contraception is subject to failures due to incorrect application.

scientific evidence is kinda funny, slippery (no pun re the mucous thing)....I could use ironclad logic. How can you deny ironclad logic???

Well, since you asked, I could deny it quite easily! The only logic that is undeniable and ironclad is pure mathematical logic. In all other areas of science, “logic” is highly qualitative. I will paraphrase a great scientist on the subject of logic and common sense: “Common sense is merely a set of prejudices learnt by the age of 16.”

In other words, one man’s logic is another man’s nonsense. Thus, science hasn’t relied on logical reasoning alone for explanations since Galileo. Instead, science relies on experimentation and data gathering in order to confirm a hypothesis. Science says that unless a hypothesis has substantiating experimental evidence, it remains unproven. Not necessarily wrong, but unproven.<P>

 

[fuzzywuz]

Herc, I am still waiting on Dr. Billings... they DID get back to me and said stuff that supported YOUR opinion...but didn't address my specific questions...so I called that to their attentiona and am waiting for a second response....I maintain gravity is the key, and therefore liquid must move the egg...a blood spot shows up at the vaginal lips indicating the moment the egg broke free from the ovary and began to move....that the blood spot comes down to the vaginal lips means there is a coherent flow of liquid down...it's that fullproof...right up there with salmon returning to spawn, the butterfly migration, the swallows and all that....it's a built in system.

 

[fuzzywuz]

Pete, thanks for your posts also.

the billings Method web site has lots of clinical studies posted in their links. Some of the stuff you want hasn't been tested it seems...but maybe, I haven't checked it all out yet.

I have found that more extended sexual activity modifies the vaginal mucous and can
further give advantage to "male" sperm. Like if the runners in your footrace had to take a bathroom break....the women would be forced to wait in longer lines than the men, and more males would end up in the front half !!

 

[fuzzywuz]

well...er...ah....it doesn't sound like gravity is needed....a Billings Rep (who I don't have all that much confidence in...) send me a reply that "cilia" in the tubes propel the egg....so, well, I feel shut out. I still think gravity is the mover...time will tell...when they start doing HUMAN reproduction experiemtns ion the ISS.....