From God's inexistence it follows God's existence

[mustafhakofi]

cyperium: it's called indoctrination/brainwashing, and from birth religious zealots force it on theirs and others children.
they should be allowed to be children, and decide what they want when there old enough.
I and millions of others have reason, sense, and intellect, in our brains there's no area devoted to a god/gods, we're not that stupid, we're not sheep.( after all jesus called you all his flock)

as godless and mouse said irichc
You equal God with truth, Why? try non-entity.
however as it has come from a believer, then there's no wonder it completely baffling and meaningless.

 

[Godless]

We don't know if we are born with an idea of God or not. We know however that we have a area in the brain devoted to it though. So, yes, maybe someone put this idea in our heads.

We are born atheists, hence no knowledge of god, devils, mysticism in general. The mind of a child is empty, there's no such thing as inate knowledge from the woumb. Tabula Raza=empty slate.

The idea of gods come from ancient ignorance. That area of the brain you speak off?. It's the reminicense of the bicameral mind. see this

Godless.

 

[mis-t-highs]

I found this and it might make you think irichc.


Without Time God didn't have enough Time to decide to create Time.


DRAYGOMB's PARADOX

Definitions:

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause - St. Thomas Acquinas
The First Cause is That which caused Time.
Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is Conscious.
God requires Time.
God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.
God isn't the cause of Time.
God isn't The First Cause.
If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.

God doesn't exist.

does that clarify anything

 

[mouse]

God as defined by the theist would either be Truth (the ultimate) or be even greater than truth itself and be the source of it (since God is[would be] the source of all that is).

How can a creator be equalled with something it supposed to have created? If I were to create a drawing of a flower, am I equal to that drawing?

 

[MarcAC]

How can a creator be equalled with something it supposed to have created? If I were to create a drawing of a flower, am I equal to that drawing?

How can 1/3 of infinity be equal to 1/2 of inifnity and still be equal to infinity?
--
It's really more looking at truth as a part of God's Nature and it is reflected in His creation.

 

[MarcAC]

DRAYGOMB's PARADOX... The First Cause is That which caused Time.

Which time? If we consider time as a dimension, String Theory would imply that our time could have been caused within a higher 'time dimension' if you wish; God's time dimension (which may or may not be integral to God Himself)?

Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.

Consciousness makes one aware, then one can make decisions based on his awareness. Does awareness require time or does awareness result in the perception of time? Can God be aware and make a decision which is the Genesis of time itself? Seems workable to me.

I think those a relevent concerns which should be addressed before any conclusions are drawn.

 

[mouse]

How can 1/3 of infinity be equal to 1/2 of inifnity and still be equal to infinity?

It is not in a literal sense. Take for a moment all integer numbers > 0. That's an infinite set.

Take every odd number out of that set. That's still an infinite set, but not equal to the set of all integer numbers > 0.

Take every third number in the set of all integer numbers > 0. That's still an infinite set, but not equal to the set of all integer numbers > 0, nor is it equal to the set of all odd integer numbers > 0.

It's really more looking at truth as a part of God's Nature and it is reflected in His creation.

So God does not equal truth? You can not be equal to truth and at the same time have it as a part of your nature.

Moreover, to state that truth is in God's nature is yet another assumption rather than a proof. If you are going to use that assumption, it needs some kind of justification; why is truth in God's nature? what, exactly, does it mean?

 

[audible]

Which time? If we consider time as a dimension, String Theory would imply that our time could have been caused within a higher 'time dimension' if you wish; God's time dimension

yes lets, for all intents and purposes, lets call them time a,time b,time c, and so to infinity and beyond.
and lets also while we are at it, use your word awareness rather than Consciousness, now lets chose any one of your different times, randomly lets call it time t, or t time.
now lets reprint draygomb's paradox, with the new stuff added.



Without T Time God didn't have enough T Time to decide to create T Time.


DRAYGOMB's PARADOX version 2

Definitions:

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause - St. Thomas Acquinas
The First Cause is That which caused T Time.
awareness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
T Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

T Time is required for Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time.
awareness can't let one make a decision without T Time.
awareness requires T Time.
God is aware.
God requires T Time.
God can't be the cause of T Time if God requires T Time.
God isn't the cause of T Time.
God isn't The First Cause.
If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.

God doesn't exist.

WOW Still works for me.

 

[MarcAC]

awareness can't let one make a decision without T Time.

Is there a problem with time resulting from awareness? I don't think so. The only reason you perceive 'time' at all is because you are aware. But, would you be aware if there was no time? So which is the prerequisite then? I would see awareness as simply recognising that one object is at point A as opposed to point B at an instant. Time starts when object A undergoes some sort of motion from point A to point C say. Thus you are aware, then you see time. Thus there is still a problem with the G-'Paradox'. Any objections? I'm all eyes.

 

[MarcAC]

Take every odd number out of that set. That's still an infinite set, but not equal to the set of all integer numbers > 0.

The only way you can conclude this is if you have a definite value for infinity. Otherwise they can both be equal. Makes no sense? I agree. It's logical though.

So God does not equal truth? You can not be equal to truth and at the same time have it as a part of your nature.

It's either one or the other. Some might define "Truth" as God. I don't. Regardless, truth points to God as seen by the Theist.

Moreover, to state that truth is in God's nature is yet another assumption rather than a proof. If you are going to use that assumption, it needs some kind of justification; why is truth in God's nature? what, exactly, does it mean?

If truth was not in the Creator's Nature then His creation would have no value of truth associated with it. That's what Daniel was illustratiing (or trying to[?]) above. Theists see God as the creator. If truth is at all in the creation it must be at least a part of God's Nature.

 

[fahrenheit 451]

Is there a problem with time resulting from awareness? I don't think so. The only reason you perceive 'time' at all is because you are aware

that is what it says.(see red writing)

It's beyond me and proberly millions of others why you cant see this.
time is time is time, whatever name you wish to call it
how many TIMES do we have to reworded this
whatever happens to the universe, time is effected
whatever happens to an aleged creator, time is effected
time can be an instant, time can be a millennium,
depending on your perspective.



Without Time God didn't have enough Time to decide to create Time.


DRAYGOMB's PARADOX version 3

Definitions:

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause - St. Thomas Acquinas
The First Cause is That which caused Time.
awareness/Consciousness is what is needed for one to make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of the change/decision.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be needed by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is needed to make a Change.
A Decision is in essense a Change.
Decisions need Time.
awareness/Consciousness needs Time to make a decision.
awareness/Consciousness needs Time.
God is aware/Conscious.
God needs Time.
God could not have caused Time, if God needs Time.
God isn't the cause of Time.
God isn't The First Cause.
If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.

God doesn't exist.

and it Still works for us.

 

[mustafhakofi]

all three work for me, but you cant expect marcac to accept it he's a believer we should agree to disagree.

 

[mouse]

The only way you can conclude this is if you have a definite value for infinity. Otherwise they can both be equal.

No. The sets are not equal, regardless whether there exists a definite value for infinity (which doesn't). To proof you this, I should find an element of one set that is not in the second set. In our example, it's very easy. I take the number 2. It is obviously in the set of integer numbers > 0, but not in the set of odd integer numbers > 0.

Regardless, truth points to God as seen by the Theist.

Yes, but there is no proof that truth does point to God. This thread was started with an attempt to proof it. Which failed.

Theists see God as the creator. If truth is at all in the creation it must be at least a part of God's Nature.

In God's creation there is also deception. Was deception a part of God's nature? Perhaps you would argue that it is part of the Devil's nature, but was not even he created by God to begin with?

 

[MarcAC]

awareness/Consciousness is what is needed for one to make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of the change/decision.

Yeah but you still haven't shown, here, how awareness requires time. The decision requires consciousness and awareness... sure... but... still you fail to show where awareness requires a decision which requires time. You cool with that?

You see it's like this; You drive a car in dirt and the wheels leave a trail. A trail from point A to B we conveniently call time. What you are saying is that the car needs that trail it left to start driving. Or like thiis; you are saying D requires A and T. In no way does that imply that A requires T. So can you show me how awareness requires a decision?

 

[the preacher]

did existence just happen, or did god decide to create it, so we can say that god was aware of his decision to create it, and while he was making this decision was time standing still, was he stuck in a micro second, not going forward or backward, up or down, left or right, thinking or not, stuck right there not doing anything.
" NO " so therefore he needed time to make a decision, and he had to be aware also.
are you cool with that.

You see it's like this; You drive a car in dirt and the wheels leave a trail. A trail from point A to B we conveniently call time. What you are saying is that the car needs that trail it left to start driving. Or like thiis; you are saying D requires A and T. In no way does that imply that A requires T. So can you show me how awareness requires a decision?

no, it's your aware, if you drive a car in the dirt, it will leave a trail, from a to b.
so you decide to make that trail, and in order to make the trail, you need time else you stand still.

 

[§outh§tar]

@ the preacher

How can God need something that He created. That statement evinces a logical inconsistency. Considering He created time before there was time, that to the human perspective there would be past, present and future.

 

[MarcAC]

In our example, it's very easy. I take the number 2. It is obviously in the set of integer numbers > 0, but not in the set of odd integer numbers > 0.

I get you perfectly and you're right... but in terms of members they're still infinite sets and for all reasonable considerations have to have equal amounts of members and yet cannot have equal amounts of members. Infinity is undefined, sure, and that's the reason for the nonsesense... the question is does it really exist? It's everywhere you look. So it demands consideration. It's like trying to deny you exist. It might look to the mathematician like God does to the atheist; Everywhere you look but you can't understand it so you try to deny its existence.

In God's creation there is also deception. Was deception a part of God's nature? Perhaps you would argue that it is part of the Devil's nature, but was not even he created by God to begin with?

Deception is just that. It is what is not. Truth is what is. God didn't create what isn't there. Get me? He created what is. Deception must be due to our wrongful interpretations of what is there. You know? Our flat earths and our earth centred universes. Otherwise deception is a truth (which really doesn't make sense to me), and not a bad thing. That's my rationalisation. It's a very good question though. The fact God is all knowing means he saw it coming. Why'd he allow it? What good does it do? I think it's all a consequence of us beling allowed choices. We choose what to believe.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

§our§tar: "@ the preacher

How can God need something that He created.
*************
M*W: "Necessity is the mother of invention."
*************
SourStar: That statement evinces a logical inconsistency. Considering He created time before there was time, that to the human perspective there would be past, present and future.
*************
M*W: God didn't create time as we know it. Time is a measurement invented by humans. God created life cycles that are manifested in and of creation itself, like the orbiting of Earth around the sun, length of gestations of all mammals, birth, puberty, menopause, death; the sun directly overhead at 12:00 Noon (unless interupted by man's creation of DST); the ebb and flow of the tides. Cycles of life are found in all creation. Man created the measurement of the life cycles.

 

[audible]

@ the preacher

How can God need something that He created. That statement evinces a logical inconsistency. Considering He created time before there was time, that to the human perspective there would be past, present and future.

that exactly the point.
look at mistys post below.

Without Time God didn't have enough Time to decide to create Time.


DRAYGOMB's PARADOX

Definitions:

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause - St. Thomas Acquinas
The First Cause is That which caused Time.
Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is Conscious.
God requires Time.
God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.
God isn't the cause of Time.
God isn't The First Cause.
If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.

God doesn't exist.

thank you Southstar.
now do you see it MarcAC, southstar does.

 

[mouse]

I get you perfectly and you're right... but in terms of members they're still infinite sets and for all reasonable considerations have to have equal amounts of members and yet cannot have equal amounts of members.

Why do you think that they should have an equal amount of members, for all reasonable considerations?

It is what is not. Truth is what is. God didn't create what isn't there. Get me?

Yes, but the act of deception and the deception itself are not negated. I can tell you that the colour of my eyes is brown. That would be lie, but nonetheless the lie exists, just as much as the truth exists. If God is the cause of all that is, he is also the cause of this little deception I just conjured. If we follow your rationale, that implies deception must have been also a part of his nature. Personally, I do not agree with that, very much like I do not agree with stating that every truth points to God.

Not to mention that we have completely side stepped the discussion how to recognize truth to begin with, if all we have are unreliable senses, an imperfect mind and instruments made by the same imperfect beings. The scientific method is an example of how to cope with all those uncertainties which could make research prone to error. Yet, even a scientist would probably not claim so boldy to have found the "truth". Rather, he or she would claim to have found a model with more predictive value than the previous one.

Taking this into consideration, I suppose the concept of God was an appealing model for explaining nature, but I think we can find better models today.