Whatever happened to 'god has a plan for everyone' if he does, we have no free choice, for free choice may mess up his plan if i choose to do something im not supposed to, his plan may involve me saving someone in japan, if i choose to holiday in florida instead i mess up his plan by my free choice.
free will ?
- Thread starter mario
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Yes but this is exactly like the case of the evil ring. Did the ring warn people of future terrible events? Or did it cause them and then taunt the person who had the ring at the time? If Jesus fortold something, did it happen BECAUSE he fortold it? Or was he merely warning everyone of what he knew? How can you make an argument of it? Thoughts, people?alain said:
Oh and anyway I think that this fate/destiny thing only exists so that when people screw up their life they can just say "god meant me to be this way!" when its entirely their fault. If you work hard all your life and achieve a lot you hear people saying "I've got this because I've worked hard." They don't owe their good jobs/fame/whatever to god, because they would be throwing away credit for their own work. Right?
Is that so? Because I was under the impression that all the freak-Christians here wanted us to repent and join them? But according to this there is no way, no matter how hard we try that we can become Christian... so I guess I'm gonna have to die by pitchforks after all... oh well *shrugs*
Can something happen that God does not want to happen?
And can we really change God's mind -- if he has decided to give your mother cancer, can you pray to him to cure her and he cures her based on your prayer?
And can we really change God's mind -- if he has decided to give your mother cancer, can you pray to him to cure her and he cures her based on your prayer?
It would be soooo simple if god showed us what hell is like. Like touring a prison here on earth. Once you see what's it like then you can decide for yourself if you want to be bad or good. If god says he is real and hell or punishment for not accepting him is also real, then why doesn't he show us? It shouldn't matter if the truth is on paper (the bible) or shown to us in real life. Truth is truth. God should know that just words on paper can cause doubt and differences in interpretation. Why can't he be more direct?
But religion says god doesn't want to force us into accepting him. We would be like robots if we did. It would take away our free choice. But doesn't the threat of punishment weigh on our free choice? How can we feel comfortable to choose freely if there is a hammer hanging over our heads ready to pound us? He is forcing us to make just one choice - him.
I still say that if you know how a person is going to decide even with an unlimited amount of choice offered to them, or even before they are born, then that choice has already been made for them. Looking into the future is what doesn't make sense for free choice. If the future can't be changed then that means our choice can't be changed either. Is that freedom?
But religion says god doesn't want to force us into accepting him. We would be like robots if we did. It would take away our free choice. But doesn't the threat of punishment weigh on our free choice? How can we feel comfortable to choose freely if there is a hammer hanging over our heads ready to pound us? He is forcing us to make just one choice - him.
I still say that if you know how a person is going to decide even with an unlimited amount of choice offered to them, or even before they are born, then that choice has already been made for them. Looking into the future is what doesn't make sense for free choice. If the future can't be changed then that means our choice can't be changed either. Is that freedom?
Repentance is accepting God.
Yes, someone cannot work their way into becoming Christian. But you are assuming that non-christians have not accepted God. In fact, this seems to be untrue. Non-christians have varying assent of God in their life, even atheist, as shown by any unhypocritical good done.
It is not in his nature since it would only deter someone away from God. Without full comprehension of the actions that resulted in someone being in hell, any benefits to seeing hell would be worthless.
No one accepts that what he does not see. No one accepts that which is not there.
Do you have hope that he will be more direct?
It does not seem like hell is punishment in the usual sense of the word. By effectively treating material or that which is not god as a god, the person remains only with the god that he or she made since no one can serve two masters.
No, that assumes that there is a singular point in time where God obtained this knowledge.
Assuming God knows the future, he doesn't look into the future; he is outside of it.
So if I go thru life being totally good and not doing anyone or anything any harm. Not committing any acts of evil whatsoever. Instead being a very loving person. Will I still be able to get into heaven even if I don't believe in god? Is the simple act of not believing in god an act of evil? I think not.
By the way, if jews don't believe in jesus, will they still go to heaven? Not according to the bible. For jesus said..."I am the way, the light, etc etc". But try telling them that.
By the way, if jews don't believe in jesus, will they still go to heaven? Not according to the bible. For jesus said..."I am the way, the light, etc etc". But try telling them that.
Yes, it's possible if that person is interacting with God's grace and not truly comprehending it. Yet it is implicit with your non-belief in God is belief that you define what acts of evil are.
If the person has received enough evidence to believe in God and choses to disbelieve, then it would be sinful. However, for disbelief to be mortaly sinful, the person must be consciencly aware of it. Typically, though, disbelief is not caused by disbelief alone but by other sins.
"Assuming God knows the future, he doesn't look into the future; he is outside of it"
How do you know that? Does the bible say that? If not then you're only guessing. And so what if he is "outside" of time. He still can see what's going to happen. That's what revelations is all about. It's still looking into the future in some way or form. Or if you prefer, if he is outside of time, then he is looking "at" it from a distance instead of "into" it.
whateverrrrr...
How do you know that? Does the bible say that? If not then you're only guessing. And so what if he is "outside" of time. He still can see what's going to happen. That's what revelations is all about. It's still looking into the future in some way or form. Or if you prefer, if he is outside of time, then he is looking "at" it from a distance instead of "into" it.
whateverrrrr...
I qualified the statement with assuming. As for the bible, well if that were so then anything that you say and think would say would be just guessing as well.
If God was within time, then knowing that some event would occur would only constrain that event. I think it's a false dichotomy to assume that either God knows the future or doesn't know the future.
To know whether God is within time or outside of it you must explore what our conscience action is--why we can even know the present from the past.
"No, your only chance to be good is to be with God, allowing him to work through you. It's your free will to accept him or not, but you will not be good if you do not accept him."
i have no idea what your deffinition of good is, but it doesnt sound like a very good one. australian aboriginees lived for 40000ish years without God, and they lived in harmony with their environment, and had few large battles in this amount of time. that beats the Christians record by soooo much
i have no idea what your deffinition of good is, but it doesnt sound like a very good one. australian aboriginees lived for 40000ish years without God, and they lived in harmony with their environment, and had few large battles in this amount of time. that beats the Christians record by soooo much
Quote - "No one is good but God. If God decides to not remain within that person, they will not be good but evil." So there is no free will and we have no choice but to be evil (unless God decides that He himself is tired of being evil)
No, your only chance to be good is to be with God, allowing him to work through you. It's your free will to accept him or not, but you will not be good if you do not accept him."
Thank you for proving christian ignorance, i know plenty of athiests who do good and do not believe in a god, they do good because that seems the right thing to do, not because a book or invisible god tells them to, i know plenty of people who do much more good than many christians, yet by your standards these christians will go to heaven and the rest will not, even though they are better people. I dont believe in god, according to you that makes me evil, yet i give to charity, am i still evil because i dont believe in a god, or that i will be rewarded with heaven?
No, your only chance to be good is to be with God, allowing him to work through you. It's your free will to accept him or not, but you will not be good if you do not accept him."
Thank you for proving christian ignorance, i know plenty of athiests who do good and do not believe in a god, they do good because that seems the right thing to do, not because a book or invisible god tells them to, i know plenty of people who do much more good than many christians, yet by your standards these christians will go to heaven and the rest will not, even though they are better people. I dont believe in god, according to you that makes me evil, yet i give to charity, am i still evil because i dont believe in a god, or that i will be rewarded with heaven?
The aborigenees made almost no progress in the use of weapons. http://www.ntu.edu.au/faculties/lba/schools/Law/apl/blog/stories/natpolitics/188.htm