Free Will vs Divine Design

[ismu]

Oops I'm late to respond. Regional time difference...

Raithere
If this is true then f**k God. I'm no one's slave. Torture me, destroy me, it doesn't matter, I'll not be chained. Like Lucifer and Prometheus I'll make my choices and live with the consequences. All my destruction will prove is that God is evil and petty and more powerfull than me. So what?

I'll not bend knee and be God's little sycophant like Adam, cowering in the garden.

This arrognce attitude has made satan being cursed gonna lives in hell forever. Satan won't bend on Adam while Allah give dirrect order to them. Again, we free to choose what we gonna become, go with satan to hell or to heaven with prophets.

And yes, God IS the most evil Thing over all of His creatures. But He also the most kind over all of his creatures. He got all properties / charecteristics in "the most" mode. The biggest, most powerfull, smartest, most evil, most forgiveness. The most in all stuffs. Nothing to compare whit.

Xev

So, why didn't Allah stop Hitler before he came to power?

He did not intent to maintain peace in the world. We got to make it ourselves with guidance from holybook and our intelligence(Aqal/Aqly). Btw, Hitler surely will pay for what his done later in doom.

All of you
I'm saying about the concept in Islam. Don't mess up with Christian's.

Markx
Glad to to see you

 

[ismu]

Ah, I forgot one thing to respond.

Islam belive that we're born pure, without sin. This is very difference with Christian which believe that we born in sin because of Adam's and Eve's mistake ate the fruit.

Adam and Eve was ate the fruit and then teleported to earth as the consequence is still in Allah scenario. He set up the game and by His perfect prediction, He also knew that Adam and Eve gonna tempted.

Perhaps it was His reasearh on Artificial Iintelligence (we're His toys, remember?). When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, their curiousity which is part of their artifial intelligence (our real intelligence) already sufficient enough to continue the research to Put mankind on earth. This research is to test is human intelligence to control their animal desires. To use their intelligence to follow (and understand) Qur'an instead of follow their animal instinc. Those who has defect intelligence will got heat treatment refinery in hell. This intelligence matter is the only thing make us different with other creatures, including uneverse, animal, plants, and even angel.

Last paragraph is my own thought and can not be used as reference to judge other muslim.

 

[Xev]

And yes, God IS the most evil Thing over all of His creatures. But He also the most kind over all of his creatures. He got all properties / charecteristics in "the most" mode. The biggest, most powerfull, smartest, most evil, most forgiveness. The most in all stuffs. Nothing to compare whit.

Good gravy, Ismu! Why would you worship somthing that was evil at all?!

Islam belive that we're born pure, without sin. This is very difference with Christian which believe that we born in sin because of Adam's and Eve's mistake ate the fruit.

Correct. Christians believe that sin entered the world through Adam (not you, Adamski). This way, we are all born sinners and need to accept Jesus as a mediator between God and man, since God cannot stand sin.*

Muslims believe (be nice people, I'm new at this one) that Adam sinned, but because Allah is loving and merciful, Adam's descendants are not 'cursed'. In Islam, we are all born as Muslims, although some 'stray'....

This negation of the concept of origional sin means that Muslims do not need to be forgiven in the Christian sense. Rather, they are 100% accountable for their actions.

Oh, there is redemption for 'sinners' - however, Muslims must earn this redemption. Muslims are not given a ticket into heaven, although they are assured that Allah is ever-mercifull.

*Audience hisses "SHUT UP ALREADY!" at Xev*

Thus, Robertson's criticism of Islam as 'having no assurance' is correct. However, I think that a rational mind would find an emphasis on personal responsibility to be a blessing.

Right, I shut up now.

*This makes the 'curse of Eve' - subserviance - a moot concept in Islam. The influence this has on gender politics and religion is a fascinating topic, but I don't want to hyjack.

Edited for rambling, babbling, and other assorted sins against the gods of nerditude.

 

[ismu]

Xev
Good gravy, Ismu! Why would you worship somthing that was evil at all?!

Because there is no better choice. We're His creation, His toys, His slaves. If you work perfect, you won't make robot toys that may have ability to defeat you, don't you?

Xev
Oh, there is redemption for 'sinners' - however, Muslims must earn this redemption. Muslims are not given a ticket into heaven, although they are assured that Allah is ever-mercifull.

*Audience hisses "SHUT UP ALREADY!" at Xev*

Thus, Robertson's criticism of Islam as 'having no assurance' is correct. However, I think that a rational mind would find an emphasis on personal responsibility to be a blessing.

We don't call it redemption. It's a different concept. Muslim have obligation to do what God says in Qur'an and may not do things forbidden. We're sin if we fail to obey His order. As you make make a mistake on your job, you pay consequences to your boss. In your work, you can let go your bond to your company, but in live we can't let go our bond to the God. We're His eternal slaves.

Don't take wrong about slaves here. Islam rule that the boss should be kind to his/her slaves. There are obligation and right for both master and slaves.

Back to obligation. As human can not be perfect we always make mistakes while doing God's orders. So we got sin. We have to work right to receive a reward. If we can make our reward and sin balance, we go straight to the heaven. If we got more sin than our rewards, we got to take heat treatment in hell for a while. Then we go to the heaven after we pay fully our sin in hell.

You're got wrong information here. Muslims HAVE insurance to go to heaven as long as the not make a big mistake: betraying God. But still there are several chance we forgiven after make a big mistake. God is mercifull. The difference on go to heaven is only how long we got to pay our sin.

This secret info about insurance for muslim told by prophet Muhammad just before he died. He affraid by this insurance will discourage moslem doing their duty, but He got to tell anything God told to. It's told in Hadist.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by ismu
This arrognce attitude has made satan being cursed gonna lives in hell forever. Satan won't bend on Adam while Allah give dirrect order to them. Again, we free to choose what we gonna become, go with satan to hell or to heaven with prophets.

Like I said, I choose Hell. It may be arrogant but no more so than any slave who died rather than accept bondage. And actually, I'd rather hop around the lake of fire than be cloistered with a bunch of prophets for eternity… it would be less painful and more interesting.

Of course, all of this is moot since God doesn't really exist.

And yes, God IS the most evil Thing over all of His creatures. But He also the most kind over all of his creatures. He got all properties / charecteristics in "the most" mode. The biggest, most powerfull, smartest, most evil, most forgiveness. The most in all stuffs. Nothing to compare whit.

Nothing can be most good and most evil at the same time.

~Raithere

 

[ismu]

Ah, i forgot again *thunk... thunk... thunk... -- hit my head*. There is more thing to add:

There are exception for those who don't have enough intelligence such as idiots. And also for kid don't have obligation until he grew up to certain age (baliq). The age considered as mature enough to receive obligation is monthly period for girls and ability to produce sperm for guys. I don't know the rule for one who fertil (i can't find the rule about it, yet). Perhaps, age 13 -- 14 considered as mature enough.

All kids who died before they mature enough go stright to heaven, because they don't have sin, their mistakes are forgiven. It's similar with our law for criminal. Kids don't do crimes. And also for mental illness.

 

[ismu]

Raithere
Like I said, I choose Hell. It may be arrogant but no more so than any slave who died rather than accept bondage. And actually, I'd rather hop around the lake of fire than be cloistered with a bunch of prophets for eternity… it would be less painful and more interesting.

It's your choiche. I can only show you better chance to win the game by being little bit humble, and admit who's the boss. I MAY NOT push you to believe what I belive (Lakum deenukum wa lyadeen).

Of course, all of this is moot since God doesn't really exist.

If you open minded, I suggest you check out on prooves posted by Markx (and me a little bit) in other threads in this section.

Nothing can be most good and most evil at the same time.

Why not? Are you trying to compare God with human? I say: Wrong logic.
Btw, to your level of logic, you can compare with a very perfectsionist military leaders. They can be really kind to his soldiers, but very mean to his enemies. He would die to save his soldiers, but he can torch his prisoner like an animal to dig secret info.

 

[Xev]

Ismu:
"It's your choiche. I can only show you better chance to win the game by being little bit humble, and admit who's the boss."

No thanks. I, like Raith, am not born to be a slave.

"I MAY NOT push you to believe what I belive (Lakum deenukum wa lyadeen)."

No, of course you cannot.

"We don't call it redemption. It's a different concept. Muslim have obligation to do what God says in Qur'an and may not do things forbidden. We're sin if we fail to obey His order. As you make make a mistake on your job, you pay consequences to your boss. In your work, you can let go your bond to your company, but in live we can't let go our bond to the God. We're His eternal slaves."

Right. I'm trying to use Christian parallels, but it's very different. Sorry.

See, Christians think that they are born sinners, and need to be redeemed. But Muslims - it's more of a duty? Do I have it right?

"Back to obligation. As human can not be perfect we always make mistakes while doing God's orders. So we got sin. We have to work right to receive a reward. If we can make our reward and sin balance, we go straight to the heaven. If we got more sin than our rewards, we got to take heat treatment in hell for a while. Then we go to the heaven after we pay fully our sin in hell."

Like the Catholic Purgatory? I didn't know that.

"This secret info about insurance for muslim told by prophet Muhammad just before he died. He affraid by this insurance will discourage moslem doing their duty, but He got to tell anything God told to. It's told in Hadist."

Hadist? I've never heard....like I said, I'm not as familiar with Islam as I am with Christianity.

That explains why I was wrong. Sorry.

 

[ismu]

Xev

No thanks. I, like Raith, am not born to be a slave.

Like or not, we all God's slaves. We cannot change this status. WE FREE TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO BUT WE CAN'T CHANGE THIS STATUS.
Some of us admit it, some others not even realize it.

"I MAY NOT push you to believe what I belive (Lakum deenukum wa lyadeen)."

No, of course you cannot.

Perhaps I can (using hypnotism or else), perhaps I can't.
Again: I MAY NOT PUSH... Moslem forbidden to force someone else to be a moslem. But to tell about Islam (syi'ar) IS part of the duty. We're suggested to convince them, but it's not a sin if we fail. We can only tell the facts. You can decide your own way. Believe should came from both heart and logic. YOU'RE FREE TO CHOOSE, And so do I.

See, Christians think that they are born sinners, and need to be redeemed. But Muslims - it's more of a duty? Do I have it right?

Yes. There are several categories guide us to do this obligations:

1. We MUST do some stuff (Fardhu). There are exception if we really unable to do these thing because of poor, bad health, too young or too old. We got reward if we do it right, but we're sin if we fail.

2. We SUPPOSE to do some other stuff. (Sunah) We got reward if we did it, and there is no sin if we didn't do it.

3. We FREE to do things. (Mubah) There is no reward or sin to these stuff.

4. We BETTER NOT to do some stuff (Subhat). There is no reward or sin to these stuff also. But these stuff may drag us to do sin. (sometimes Subhat considered a part of Mubah)

5. We SUPPOSE NOT to do some stuff (Makruh). We got reward if we didn't do it, and there is no sin if we did it.

6. We MAY NOT do these stuff (Haram). We also got reward if we didn't do it, and we're sin if we did it.

So, you see we got better chaances here, and insurance too.

Like the Catholic Purgatory? I didn't know that.

Sorry, I don't know about it either. I don't want to waste my time to learn too much from messed up books. After i find a lot of flaws in those basic concepts, I won't continue it.

Hadist? I've never heard....like I said, I'm not as familiar with Islam as I am with Christianity.

Hadist or Hadith (people write difference in latin chars because of how their language spell it, but it always the same arabic chars),
We can say it as a kin of notes of Prophet Muhammad history of life. About what he did, what he said, what he didn't do, etc.
Islam holly book is only Qur'an. We use Hadist to understand Qur'an better, just like on prophet's point of view. We cannot mess up with our own interpretation to take benefits by twisting words or logic.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Xev
Ismu:

That explains why I was wrong. Sorry.

You are not wrong. Just not well informed about the religion. Wrong is a strong word. I always avoid calling any one wrong untill I am very very sure about it and prove it wrong.

But I as a muslims respect every ones beliefs. I welcome you to question and will do my best to provide answer. No BS of spread the love and love is God etc etc.

 

[Xev]

Ismu:

Perhaps I can (using hypnotism or else), perhaps I can't.

You....will....send.......private.....message.....with your credit card number........

Nah. It's pretty much impossible to make a person believe somthing....

It can be done, but you destroy the personality. Anyways, it's off topic.

Yes. There are several categories guide us to do this obligations:

1. We MUST do some stuff (Fardhu). There are exception if we really unable to do these thing because of poor, bad health, too young or too old. We got reward if we do it right, but we're sin if we fail.

2. We SUPPOSE to do some other stuff. (Sunah) We got reward if we did it, and there is no sin if we didn't do it.

3. We FREE to do things. (Mubah) There is no reward or sin to these stuff.

4. We BETTER NOT to do some stuff (Subhat). There is no reward or sin to these stuff also. But these stuff may drag us to do sin. (sometimes Subhat considered a part of Mubah)

5. We SUPPOSE NOT to do some stuff (Makruh). We got reward if we didn't do it, and there is no sin if we did it.

6. We MAY NOT do these stuff (Haram). We also got reward if we didn't do it, and we're sin if we did it.

Okay, I see. Now, I presume that these things are categorized in the Q'ran?

My question to you and Markx is - how do you know whether an action falls into a certain category? Is it all written down in the Q'ran? But what if, say, somthing isn't mentioned? What do you do then?

Markx:

You are not wrong. Just not well informed about the religion.

Naw, I was stupid. Trusted bad information. Sorry.

 

[FoxMulder]

You all are!

You are ALL trusting bad information! All you need to do is accept the truth, and before it's too late!

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Xev
Ismu:


Okay, I see. Now, I presume that these things are categorized in the Q'ran?

My question to you and Markx is - how do you know whether an action falls into a certain category? Is it all written down in the Q'ran? But what if, say, somthing isn't mentioned? What do you do then?

I would look into Hadiths not all but only the authenticatic collection of life of Prophet Mohammad. There are many issues that may not be mention back then in Quran. For them either look at Hadiths or decide what your heart thinks is right thing to do. Quran covers vast fields of issues and lots of catergories are automaticaly included in that. Like praying five times a day, well now that automaticaly included beeing clean in those five times, performing wadu in all those prayers ( certain way of washing hands,. face etc ) beeing on time etc etc. So one action includes many things. Same goes for many other things but there are definate somethings that are not mention there and for them we can get reference from Hadiths.

Ismu, if you have better explaination please go ahead and give us. thank you

 

[ismu]

Markx

Ismu, if you have better explaination please go ahead and give us. thank you

Ok, here we goes:

Categories I've mentioned above is the Islam to teach moslem to be better person. It guide us to judge what are right, what are ok, and what are wrong. No matter in what culture or age (era) it will always consistently to lead people to do good things. After we got the core of Islam philosophy, we'll do good thing without calculating our reward or sin.

Beside fall into that categories Qur'an classify what we do into two parts: What we do as slaves of Allah, and what we do as part of society.

These are some examples of moslem obligations in those categories (i said examples because i might be mistaken because the lack of my knowledge, or I forgot some):

1. Must do (fardhu):
--- To God:
- Syahadat (admit that Allah is God and Muhammad is His prophet).
- Shalat (5 times daily pray)
- Fasting (a in a month Ramadhan).
- Zakat (to give food too poor after fasting).
- Qurban (sacrifice a lamb / cow once a year if we afford to. The meat use to eat for our family, and poor).
- Haji (Pray to Mecca, at least once in a lifetime if we afford to).

--- To Society:
- Study (both on religion and worldly knowledge)
- Get married for adult and already afford for it.
- Sadaqah (charity, gives money to poor).
- Pray for our family or friend who just died.
- Jihad (defend our religion and/or property from attack/crime)
- etc.

2. Suppose to do (Sunah):
--- To God:
- Extra Shalat (thajud, tarawih, la'il, etc, at night; duha at morning; before and/or after fardhu shalat; etc).
- Extra fasting.
- Jariyah (similar to sadaqah but it for supports for religion fascilities. It's like investing money for our rewards, we got royalties while the fascilities still used, such as build a mosque).
- Spread info about Islam.
- etc.

--- To Society:
- Salam (say hai in Islam style: "Assalamu'alaikum")
- Visit our family and friend (Silaturahim) regularly.
- Visit our family and friend who sick.
- Help somone else in trouble.
- Serve guest well.
- Free our slave (if we have one/some).
- etc.

3. Free to do (Mubah):
--- To God:
- none
--- To Society:
- Anything which may not harm other peple.

4. Better not to do (Subhat)
--- To God:
- Believe in nonsense mumbo jumbo prophecies.
- Anything else which may drag us into sin.

--- To Society:
- Anything which might harm other peple and ourseves.

5. Suppose not to (Makruh)
--- To God:
- Taking a shit or pee face to Ka'abah (Mecca).
- etc. (sory, not in my head right now).

--- To Society:
- Harm to ourselves.
- etc.

6. Forbidden (Haram)
--- To God:
- Betraying God, consider other thing but Allah as God
- Eat pig, eat blood, and eat sacrificed animal for other's God in their religion, drinking alcohol or similar stuff as drug.
- Suicide.
- Being a homo.
- Sex before married.
- Fuck on asshole (oops sorry).
- Nude in public (there detailed info about wich part considered as nude for men and women).
- etc.

--- To Society:
- Commit crime (there are more detail what are considered as crime in Qur'an and Hadist, such as killing, stealing, cheating, etc.)
- Starting war.
- Force other believer and unbeliever into islam (But we should spread the info).
- etc.

So, you can see here that values of right and wrong mostly inspired by religion. God guide human using some religion since He put human on earth. And Islam is the latest and last release of religion from Allah.

Editted to add this:
Some acivity can fall into different category according to one's condition. Such as get married can be duty for adult and have income, but can be forbidden for child or family. Pray and burried someone who died is fardhu as long as no one did it yet. But it become sunah if someone already did it.

 

[ismu]

conclusion

Islam guide for almost any aspect in life, since we're born to death. Since we're wake to sleep. It's all up to us how much we gonna invest our activities into reward or sin. As long as we don't do big sin, all moslem gonna go to heaven. Punishment in hell only a matter of time, more we have sin can't be paid by our rewards, we'll gonna stay in hell longer.

Reward and sin is one method to teach human to do the right thing, similar with the way parent teach their child. The good news is, most parents give us punishment right away if child make a mistake, and forgot to give rewards many times. (Unless for irresponsible parents, they don't care what their child do). But Allah only warn us from doing bad thing and forgive it if we're sorry, and pay it with good thing to do, or pay it in hell for a while.

If we're think about it deeper, and feel it, we'll understand the real meaning behind this teaching: Real philosophy of the truthness and rightness. And then we become wiser, enjoy doing good thing with total consciousness, and forget about rewards vs sin stuff.