Free will, Jenyar doesn't think we have it. Do you?

[Redoubtable]

Re: Free will may be an illusion

Originally posted by tiassa
Free will may be an illusion. When all is said and done, and the value of the Universe is shown--whether or not there's anyone to witness the revelation--will there have been any other way for things to have gone?

The Universe may well be determinist, and we humans simply lacking the requisite brainpower to figure out all the factors involved.

I'd like to add that the Universe cannot be deterministic, but only probabilistic. The uncertainty principle ensures this.
It's nearly the same notion, Tiassa, except that there are countless random variations on the same old story, the story of the Universe.
Truthfully, my man, the quantum uncertainty is the only real random quality of the Universe. Everything else, including the bewildering chaos theory and brownian motion you alluded to, Tiassa, easily qualifies as determinate by prior events. Quantum uncertainty, however, has no evident reliance on prior events!

I posted something on this. It provides a link to another thread related to this topic.

There is a thread, a discussion of this topic, started by Flores. However, it is, by and large, a gaggle of excuses, though I must admit that Raithere's particular excuses are quite eloquent.

There really is no getting around the fact that if God is eternal and omniscient, He must know what one will do.

. . . and please don't try to use quantum uncertainty to beef up the idea of free-will.

1) There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that quatum events are of any importance to a human's synapses.

2) Also, the universe is probabilistic, and even God may not be able to know the exact position and velocity of any given particle, but He would still immediately recognize and evaluate any one of the possibilities; if He's seen it all before, there can't be anything new to Him.

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28236&highlight=omniscience

Here's the quote's link . . .
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29511

 

[Redoubtable]

Re: Degrees and presumptions

Originally posted by tiassa
Does God have free will?

Yes?

Then free will exists in a Universe where God exists.

But human free will? That's a much stickier issue.

I'd say that God Himself is the stickiest of issues.
God, as He is often depicted, cannot have free-will. He cannot even think or function.

Originally posted by Redoubtable
An all-spirit must be omniscient and eternal, yes?

Omniscience and eternality equate to the inability to make decisions.
Every decision made by an omniscient and eternal being was never not already made.
One can only make a decision if it is not yet made.

Get my drift?

Consciousness requires a present, a temporal generatrix, a slice of time, a instantaneous rope to draw the curtain of futurity from the stage of life.
Consciousness, my girl, is the adventure of ignorance. There must be an unknown, a chaotic, unseen element. There must be an unexplored territory.


The all-spirit has seen it all, done it all, been it all, and has no ignorance or adventure.

Robert Penn Warren used the analogy of a fuse leading into an explosive barrel.
He claimed knowledge was the fuse. There was a limited quantity of fuse, a finite amount of knowledge. What happens when a creature gains all knowledge, becomes God, runs out of fuse . . . ?
Well, you get my drift.

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29156&perpage=20&pagenumber=2


In another thread, I addressed an excuse which I myself have used to justify an omniscient and eternal God. It really is exactly that, an excuse.

Now, there is the notion of an extra-dimensional God. A God who is omniscient in our 4 dimensional stage, but gifted with a 5 dimensional awareness.
. . . but that is rather a flawed explanation in my opinion. It essentially limits God's omniscience to strictly our plane.

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29511

 

[GodLied]

This thread is about possesion of free will. Your post is off-topic. Start a new thread or put it in the appropriate thread.

GodLied.

Originally posted by Jenyar
GodLied,

You do realize that those were the constitutionary laws of a real nation, don't you? And you are aware that we aren't part of that nation politically, don't you?

The Ten commandments (Moses) condemn us for our sins. If you are guilty of even one commandment you are guilty under all of them. But what condemned Israel under Moses was forgiven by God under Jesus. "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17). The was just a symptom of injustice, the death penalty was just an example of what would be needed to erradicate such injustice. The Jews believed they could gain eternal life by upholding all of the laws even beyond the letter, but this was a false hope.

45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. (John 5)

They were a sign of God's justice. You try to make it sound so politically incorrect to "support capital punishment", but the truth is that whether it is enforced or not, we will all die one day. And only God can save you. And because He has shown mercy so do we. Whether it's right or wrong for people to punish murder with the death penalty or "only" with life sentences, is for the courts to decide. Their challenge is whether they can do it without showing favouritsm. But in the end justice will be done either way.

James 2
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

In the meantime, let those who are innocent cast the first stone.

 

[Jenyar]

GodLied,

I posted in answer to your allegation above. And laws as a limitation to free will is not off topic. State laws do not limit your freedom, but they do judge it. The laws of Moses reminded people that they were being held accountable for their freedom by owing their way of life to God.

Originally posted by GodLied
Jenyar, you are the first person to claim a political party based on the Old Testament Laws of God will win a political race. Thank you for your opinion. You do understand that in so deciding that stance that you support God's Laws as presented in the Old Testament. Such notions show that you support capital punishment. If you do not support capital punishment, you are denouncing God by denouncing his Law.

GodLied.

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert title here)

I'd like to add that the Universe cannot be deterministic, but only probabilistic. The uncertainty principle ensures this.

To the one, that's fair 'nuff.

To the other, if you step outside time, so to speak, and look at the whole of the process, when all the probability waves collapse and presto! the truth is revealed, could it really have been any other way at all?

The idea of free will only works at all if we accept that our understanding of time is complete.

Life, existence, whatever ... think of it for a moment like a magic trick: mysterious and impressive, until you figure out the trick. Our finite brains cannot comprehend the infinite; there just isn't room. (As a side note, this is what cracks me up about some people who deign to think we can "understand God's plan".)

Does it happen that you have read Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five? There's a bit in there about some aliens who take this guy and a porn star captive and put them in a zoo. There is in there a bit about time, a simplistic description of viewing a man throughout the whole of his existence, that is a helpful insinuation here. But if at the end of all things you could look back at what has transpired, could things have gone any differently?

And if there is no end of all things ... well, time is a fiction.

Think of the Universe as if it and all that it contains and all that transpires within it were one event. If the past was meant to have gone any differently, it seems to me that it would have.

That's approximately the breadth of my abusive use of the word deterministic.

Nonetheless, I do admit I don't understand quantum mechanics well enough yet to account for it in the outlook. Fascinating.

 

[everneo]

Re: (Insert title here)

Originally posted by tiassa
Nonetheless, I do admit I don't understand quantum mechanics well enough yet to account for it in the outlook.

None, even the poineers of Quantum Theory, understood it fully.

The existence of quantum uncertainity does not belittle the capabilities of God, the omnicient-omnipotent-omnipresetnt if you happen to believe in God as such. For logic, we know the existence of quantumn uncertainity with loads of evidences but can't say the same with God and so he is more elusive. hence assessing God, to limit him within the scope of these phenomena, would not be complete and prone to erroneous conclusions as Redoubtable came to.

 

[GodLied]

If people owed their way of life to God, God was surely jealous when the ever ungrateful Israelites were kicked out of Israel as noted in Kings 2. According to the Holy Bible, Israelites should be in Syria, not Israel. God kicked them out but NATO put them back in. NATO put sinners back in the land of God.

NATO violated the Bible which said the Israelites are still in Syria. NATO acted against God.

GodLied.

Originally posted by Jenyar
GodLied,

I posted in answer to your allegation above. And laws as a limitation to free will is not off topic. State laws do not limit your freedom, but they do judge it. The laws of Moses reminded people that they were being held accountable for their freedom by owing their way of life to God.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by GodLied
If people owed their way of life to God, God was surely jealous when the ever ungrateful Israelites were kicked out of Israel as noted in Kings 2. According to the Holy Bible, Israelites should be in Syria, not Israel. God kicked them out but NATO put them back in. NATO put sinners back in the land of God.

NATO violated the Bible which said the Israelites are still in Syria. NATO acted against God.

GodLied.

I think the Jews would know where their home is. When they were in exile in Babylon, God promised to return them to the Promised Land. The "Promised Land" is not Syria.

 

[GodLied]

Babel?

God was jealous of Babelonians. He cursed them with confusion.

The Holy Bible claims those Israelites banished by God from Israel were still banished by God.

When did God change his mind about the sinnister pagan Israelites?

GodLied.

Originally posted by Jenyar
I think the Jews would know where their home is. When they were in exile in Babylon, God promised to return them to the Promised Land. The "Promised Land" is not Syria.

 

[matnay]

Free will controls us, we do not control free will. And since free will does not really function as intuition makes us believe, and the definition of free will is based off this flawed logic, free will does not exist.

Think of the Universe as if it and all that it contains and all that transpires within it were one event. If the past was meant to have gone any differently, it seems to me that it would have.

Exactly. In the end, the universe is as it is. Our perceptions of free will do not change the true form of the Universe. The Universe is Everything. Intuition would have us believe that the universe is something less.

 

[GodLied]

You had the will to write what you wrote. You have free will. Everyone does.

GodLied.

Originally posted by matnay
Free will controls us, we do not control free will. And since free will does not really function as intuition makes us believe, and the definition of free will is based off this flawed logic, free will does not exist.

Think of the Universe as if it and all that it contains and all that transpires within it were one event. If the past was meant to have gone any differently, it seems to me that it would have.

Exactly. In the end, the universe is as it is. Our perceptions of free will do not change the true form of the Universe. The Universe is Everything. Intuition would have us believe that the universe is something less.

 

[matnay]

You had the will to write what you wrote.

True...but it could not have happened any other way.

You have free will. Everyone does.

Free will is an illusion- which I agree, we do all have.

 

[Jenyar]

Re: Babel?

Originally posted by GodLied
God was jealous of Babelonians. He cursed them with confusion.

Yet He chose them as the instrument of His salvation.

The Holy Bible claims those Israelites banished by God from Israel were still banished by God.

Yet He provides a way for them to return.

When did God change his mind about the sinnister pagan Israelites?

When they repented and stopped being sinister pagan Israelites.

 

[GodLied]

family values, according to God's actions

<body bgcolor=green>What might we learn from that? God's family values, of course! His actions show one may adobt abused children, kick them out on the street for being neglectful, curse them with stupidity when they become smart, then bring them back home in the distant future. Quality family values are not represented by God towards his children. Do you follow God's lead and abuse your children?

GodLied.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Yet He chose them as the instrument of His salvation.


Yet He provides a way for them to return.


When they repented and stopped being sinister pagan Israelites.