Fred Phelps Dead at 84

That - the video above post - is shocking.

I am all - utterly - for the separation of church and state. But this is a valedictorian and she was giving a speech regarding her own personal journey into the sphere of adulthood. She's not polemically threatening the assembly with divine wrath if her viewpoint is not subscribed to. She's not invoking divine punishment, or heaping insult on elements of society inimical to her faith. She may do so, for all I know, in her free time: but unless markedly coloured by such latter outrages or similar, she has every right to proclaim her faith in her religion, or whatever the hell else she likes.

She might, for instance, credit her parents or her extracurriculars in swimming with this honour (she dumped swimming apparently, which I consider a mistake, but whatever: it is not the place of the school to delimit her speech about her success in relation to factors she considers significant to that success. In some senses it might be as a form of prosetylisation, but this is her time for her own expression (within the bounds of decency) and as such is not sponsored per se by the school, unless every other form of statement is also the responsibility of the school.

That it occurred at all is an outrage and a black stain on the reputation of that school. I do not know for what shameful version of the dialectic they suppressed that speech, but I can guess. Disgusting.
 
She was witnessing and giving a Christian testimonial of which I have heard many given in various churches. I will almost bet she was briefed on this and did it as a protest. As you noticed she was allowed some leeway but she decided to make it all about her Lord and Savior knowing full well the attention that she would get and the ultimate outcome.
 
Bowser said:
Certainly no comparison to Phelps' message, but it's a point to be made that Free Speech is a fragile liberty that's easily trampled.


[video=youtube_share;kqzfIitfHjU]http://youtu.be/kqzfIitfHjU[/video]
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How exactly are her liberties being trampled?
 
She also ruined the event for the rest of the valedictorians, very self-serving IMO. I know this tactic, we used to discuss doing just this kind of thing in bible study when I was in high school, nothing new here.
 
In my mind, there is no difference. It's all the same. What is it that you wish to justify--free speech for some but not others?
 
Bowser said:
In my mind, there is no difference. It's all the same.
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That's a problem, because they're not the same. The government didn't shut off that girl's microphone. The government had nothing to do with it. She was free to speak about her religious beliefs, she just wasn't going to do it in that forum, and it's the school's right to prevent her from doing so.

Free speech doesn't mean saying whatever you want wherever you want. Just as getting banned here from calling someone a rude name isn't having your free speech impinged upon, neither is having your Christian testimonial shut down at your graduation ceremony.
 
Balerion said:
That's a problem, because they're not the same. The government didn't shut off that girl's microphone. The government had nothing to do with it. She was free to speak about her religious beliefs, she just wasn't going to do it in that forum, and it's the school's right to prevent her from doing so..
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Why not? It's a public arena. And no, the school had no right to do so. But from your argument, I'm assuming that Malala should be silenced by school authorities, too. Apparently they disapprove of her thoughts and words--certainly you can find some justification in that.
 
Balerion said:
That's a problem, because they're not the same. The government didn't shut off that girl's microphone. The government had nothing to do with it. She was free to speak about her religious beliefs, she just wasn't going to do it in that forum, and it's the school's right to prevent her from doing so.

Free speech doesn't mean saying whatever you want wherever you want. Just as getting banned here from calling someone a rude name isn't having your free speech impinged upon, neither is having your Christian testimonial shut down at your graduation ceremony.
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The thing is they did allow her to speak about her belief briefly, but as I noted before this kind of thing plays out in public schools across America all the time. Again, she was told what was allowable and what was not in her speech and she went there anyway, so...... This tactic is a win-win for the student even though she did not finish speech she is a) seen as persecuted b) garnered sympathy (which could save souls in the end) c) was encouraged by her church and possibly parents to give this speech regardless of school rules. Just a tactic pure and simple, just money in the bank.
 
Bowser said:
Why not? It's a public arena.
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Uh, no, it isn't a public arena. It's a school function. They make the rules.

And no, the school had no right to do so.
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According to whom?

But from your argument, I'm assuming that Malala should be silenced by school authorities, too. Apparently they disapprove of her thoughts and words--certainly you can find some justification in that.
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She isn't being silenced. Her book is being banned from private schools. While it is detestable, it's not a free speech issue.
 
quinnsong said:
The thing is they did allow her to speak about her belief briefly, but as I noted before this kind of thing plays out in public schools across America all the time. Again, she was told what was allowable and what was not in her speech and she went there anyway, so...... This tactic is a win-win for the student even though she did not finish speech she is a) seen as persecuted b) garnered sympathy (which could save souls in the end) c) was encouraged by her church and possibly parents to give this speech regardless of school rules. Just a tactic pure and simple, just money in the bank.
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Yup. A pitiable attempt to self-inflicted martyrdom.
 
I hope that last post did not come across as cold, I do think that that young woman loves her Lord and Saviour and feels that spreading the gospel is her duty. After all, she is taught that she must be a witness at all times and in all places her faith(church) expects at least that.
 
quinnsong said:
I hope that last post did not come across as cold, I do think that that young woman loves her Lord and Saviour and feels that spreading the gospel is her duty. After all, she is taught that she must be a witness at all times and in all places her faith(church) expects at least that.
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She needs to learn that it isn't. I don't view the need to evangelize religion as a virtue.
 
Balerion said:
She needs to learn that it isn't. I don't view the need to evangelize religion as a virtue.
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From my own experience mind you, us young people were the life blood of the church. Our youthful enthusiasm was key in recruiting new members, first the teenager in the household and then not long after the parents would show up.
 
Balerion said:
Uh, no, it isn't a public arena. It's a school function. They make the rules.
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Yes, it is. Not where your 1st Amendment rights are involved.



According to whom?
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The issue of school speech or curricular speech as it relates to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution has been the center of controversy and litigation since the mid-20th century. The First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech applies to students in the public schools. In the landmark decision Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, the U.S. Supreme Court formally recognized that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate".

wikipedia.org

She isn't being silenced. Her book is being banned from private schools. While it is detestable, it's not a free speech issue.
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40,000 schools, to be precise. But you're right, since they are private schools, it's not a free speech issue.
 
quinnsong said:
The thing is they did allow her to speak about her belief briefly, but as I noted before this kind of thing plays out in public schools across America all the time. Again, she was told what was allowable and what was not in her speech and she went there anyway, so...... This tactic is a win-win for the student even though she did not finish speech she is a) seen as persecuted b) garnered sympathy (which could save souls in the end) c) was encouraged by her church and possibly parents to give this speech regardless of school rules. Just a tactic pure and simple, just money in the bank.
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Come on... You're reading a lot into it.
 
Bowser said:
Yes, it is. Not where your 1st Amendment rights are involved.
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Her First Amendment rights were not involved.

The issue of school speech or curricular speech as it relates to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution has been the center of controversy and litigation since the mid-20th century. The First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech applies to students in the public schools. In the landmark decision Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, the U.S. Supreme Court formally recognized that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate".
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It also sanctioned three separate limitations to school speech. The school Brittany went to said her speech violated the Establishment Clause of the Constitution, and three courts agreed with them.
40,000 schools, to be precise. But you're right, since they are private schools, it's not a free speech issue.
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Has nothing to do with private vs pubic, since it isn't an issue of speech being suppressed. Free speech doesn't mean that everyone has to carry your book.
 
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