Forgiveness

[grimjester]

Slight problem with the idea that man made the mistake of listening to his wife, and that is how suffering came about.

Lets look at Adam and Eve for a second. Essentially, they are in paradise, everything is good. God says do not eat that apple. Yet, leaves the apple there. What point is there to that? Tempting them. Of course, Adam and Eve are only as strong as their weakest moment. Leave the apple there long enough, and of course they will eat it.

Now, we assume that eating the apple gives them knowledge. Knowledge of Good and Evil. Right and Wrong. And we also assume, that eating the apple was Wrong. Yet, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of that, till they ate the apple.

It is equivelant of telling a child not to have candy before dinner. The child has no idea why he should not eat candy before dinner. There is no precedence for him ever eating candy then eating dinner, and realizing what harm comes of it. The parent does not explain why eating the candy is bad. Essentially, the child is naive, guiltless.

A good parent does not tell a child merely "Do not do that". A good parent explains why doing that is bad, why doing that will harm the child. I am sure we could all agree that merely obeying authority because it is the authority is not always the best course of action. Look no further than the Nazis. People followed them, did what they were told, merely because they were told to. They had no thoughts of their own, no rational backing. Is that what God rewards? Is that what God wishes? Completely irrationally obideance to whatever he says?

Of course, if Eve did not eat the apple, Jesus would have never died for our sins, none of the other important lessons ever would have came about. Essentially, without the fall from grace, God would be pointless. We would still have Adam and Eve, in the Garden, lounging around doing nothing. Of course, Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins.

Now, we do have Eve who eats the apple, causes the fall from grace. Is it fair, then, to punish all of Adam's and Eve's descendants? God gave us all orginal sin, and now we will always be sinners because of what happen. I did not tell Eve to eat the apple. I had nothing to do with Eve eating the apple. Maybe, if I was there, I could have convinced Eve not to listen to the serpant, and leave the apple on the tree. Yet, this does not matter to the ever merciful christian God. I am still punished for a crime I did not commit, and that if it had not been comitted, I could not choose between God and Satan anyways.

Which leads us to another interesting point. Could Adam and Eve really had free will, without the knowledge to choose? Could we have free will, without the fall from grace? If the apple gave us knowledge, and knowledge is required for choice.....is it not a requirement, then, for us? So now, if we accept that, then we are punished for what we need to make decisions anyways.

That is similar to giving a child in math class dention for using a ruler to draw a straight line in math class. The straight line is required. The ruler is required to draw the straight line. Yet, it is still against the law?

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by GB-GIL Trans-global
Tony1, you're such an idiot...*

Considering the source, thank you.

*...other people have other truths.*

"Other truths" are better known as "lies."

*While theirs may not really be true...*

I didn't think you'd admit it this quickly.

*The thing is, if not everybody believes what you say is the truth, it's pointless and in fact rather insulent to use it as evidence of your ultimate point.*

Oh well.
I can't think of any valid argument you would use to demonstrate how not believing the truth would invalidate the truth.

It seems to me that not believing the truth would simply make a person delusional.

*Christianity is skeptical of all things, except the truth? A Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, or a Jew would say the same thing of their religions.*

They don't, though.

*All of those religions are the truth - to the people who believe them.*

All lies are truth, too - to the people who believe them, also.

*So at the moment, your beliefs aren't REALLY true, although they may be correct,*

Have you been borrowing drugs from tiassa?

*other people KNOW the opposite of what you say, often they give evidence of paranormal experiences,*

Evidence is interesting. However, the interpretation given by the witness is often less so.

* writings in foreign languages made by your bronchial tree,*

I wondered where my lungs went.

*I'd choose Islam over Christianity any day*

You might want to reconsider that about the time your spiritual leader asks you to get some pilot training, all paid for, of course.

*Muhammad supposedly was sent to combat the corruption that supposedly occured in monotheism...)*

Well, he was supposedly sent for that.

*I've seen many, many, many people do that before, most of them Theists, but there were Atheists as well. *

You've seen atheists combatting the corruption that supposedly occurred in monotheism?
Wow.

*Originally posted by Xev
Nietzsche implicitly embraced the Absurd - that life is meaningless, and the struggle is meaningless, but one should fight anyway. Nietzsche struggled towards the overman.*

He failed; he achieved the undercorpse.
I'd say that made his philosophy Absurd.

*So I will simply yammer on and hope you understand my point. Basically, true power implies self restraint. There's no need for someone to be destructive to feel power if they are already powerful. *

That's kind of what I think.

*I disagree on how "extrordinary" the concept of God is.*

It's much more extraordinary than the concept of a spoon, for example.
There aren't any Aspoonists around.
Spoons aren't held to decide man's eternal destiny, either.

*God could be an invention of man.*

Man isn't that extraordinary.

*How so?*

It makes a person ask questions, rather than accept things blindly.
Besides, if faith were anti-intellectual, it would lead to things like people flying planes into buildings deliberately.
In actual fact, things like that are evidence of delusion.

Besides, among other things, once a person has faith, it is easy to see how faith produces results.
For example, a couple of months ago, we were talking about demons.
One of the reasons my posting has been somewhat spotty lately is that I've been spending more time casting them out.

Now, without faith, when one is faced with a person with mental illness for example. one is at a loss as to what to do.
With faith, mental illness identifies itself as a being with thoughts, intents and purposes.
This being is able to describe, in detail, what it is doing in its victim's life.
One simply tells it to take a hike.

*I completely disagree. There's no evidence (that I've observed - ...) for the existance of God.*

There's plenty.
It's pretty much all circumstantial, though.
I hope you can see the humor in that.

*Exactly. The cosmic, life-affirming Will to Power. Is this a road to God?*

Nope, that would be the road to destruction.
The road to God is narrow and few find it.
You have to look for it.

*Originally posted by A4Ever
You can't debate much about God with rational elements: you can debunk every single one of them, as is shown over and over again on Sciforums.*

Actually, you can try to debunk them, but so far no one has shown any success, as is shown over and over again on Sciforums.

*All is defined in other ways. (maybe no gravity...)*

You're absolutely correct.
There will be only levity.

The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
(Psalms 37:12,13, KJV).

... Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
(Luke 6:21, KJV).

*Originally posted by Godless
Don't let Tony stray you away from reason and seek the eternal fairy tale.*

Suffering from a fever, again, Godless?

*if god is omnipotent he could make a square circle, an elephant out of an acorn, or a tree that surpaces the atmosphere into space. Is this illogical or what?*

Coming from you, illogical, for sure.
BTW, you may have a point.
He made you, and you're as illogical as it gets.

*Originally posted by grimjester
A good parent explains why doing that is bad, why doing that will harm the child.*

Why, that sounds almost reasonable, except it doesn't work.
Has any explanation ever worked for you?
Have you ever gotten anything out of an explanation that is beyond your ability to understand?

*Is that what God rewards? Is that what God wishes? Completely irrationally obideance to whatever he says?*

Good point, NO.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Hebrews 11:6, KJV).

Produce your cause, says the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, says the King of Jacob.
(Isaiah 41:21, KJV).

*Is it fair, then, to punish all of Adam's and Eve's descendants?*

You're not being punished for that, are you?

*If the apple gave us knowledge, and knowledge is required for choice...*

The "apple" was said to give the knowledge OF good and evil.
Nowhere is it stated that it would give the ability to tell the difference between the two.
Furthermore, Adam and Eve had only good until they ate of it.
They found out what evil was after they ate of it.
Surprise!!!!!
Evil is BAD.

 

[Xev]

Tony:

You've seen atheists combatting the corruption that supposedly occurred in monotheism?
Wow.

Gee, I didn't know we did that either. Maybe I should start charging for this.

He failed; he achieved the undercorpse.
I'd say that made his philosophy Absurd.

Nietzsche's doctrine of the eternal recurrence really keeps him from being a true Absurdist, IMO.

As for whether he failed, meh, I don't think he did.

It's much more extraordinary than the concept of a spoon, for example.
There aren't any Aspoonists around.
Spoons aren't held to decide man's eternal destiny, either.

Yes, but you can sort of see spoons..... I mean, I am looking at one now.

B/W, isn't that a line in "The Matrix", "There is no spoon".

Man isn't that extraordinary.

Oh yes he is. Man sends himself to the moon and he raises the dead. He can unleash his own personal hell on his planet.

It makes a person ask questions, rather than accept things blindly.
Besides, if faith were anti-intellectual, it would lead to things like people flying planes into buildings deliberately.

Doesn't it? Have you read M.Atta's suicide note?

He had faith in a life beyond this one.

Not that this is a condemnation of faith.

In actual fact, things like that are evidence of delusion.

You mean, the correct religion would not advocate flying planes into buildings?

Besides, among other things, once a person has faith, it is easy to see how faith produces results.

Once you give me $1000, I'll show you the purple dragon who lives in my garage.

That's like saying that I'd see Cthulhu if I believed in Cthulhu, thus I should believe in Cthulhu.

One of the reasons my posting has been somewhat spotty lately is that I've been spending more time casting them out.

Happy hunting.

Now, without faith, when one is faced with a person with mental illness for example. one is at a loss as to what to do.

Ah, take the person to a psychiatrist? I have a list of psycho-active substances (get your hands off it, Tiassa, it's mine!) used for treating mental illness.

Incidentally, I think this is going to be my field.

There's plenty.
It's pretty much all circumstantial, though.
I hope you can see the humor in that.

Yes. But what you call "evidence" can be explained other ways.

Nope, that would be the road to destruction.

Meh, perish in my own overcoming. Kewl.

The road to God is narrow and few find it.
You have to look for it.

Can I use "Mapquest"?

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Xev
Gee, I didn't know we did that either. Maybe I should start charging for this.*

You'd have to be actually doing that to charge for it.

*Nietzsche's doctrine of the eternal recurrence really keeps him from being a true Absurdist, IMO.*

OTOH, that may uberabsurd.

*As for whether he failed, meh, I don't think he did.*

He failed to stay alive, which would mean that he isn't the ubermensch.

*Yes, but you can sort of see spoons..... I mean, I am looking at one now.*

That's why spoons are an example of an "ordinary" concept.

*B/W, isn't that a line in "The Matrix", "There is no spoon".*

My bad, there is at least ONE aspoonist around.

*Oh yes he is. Man sends himself to the moon*

Who says that is extraordinary?
Is there an example of another instance of Homo Sapiens who has not done that?

* and he raises the dead.*

He does?
And how do you know this?

* He can unleash his own personal hell on his planet.*

Since hell is just the grave, I can see how "extraordinary" you would think it is for Man to toodle on down to the local cemetery and "unleash his own personal hell" by purchasing a burial plot.

I, using the same principle, also "unleash my own personal dinner" by going to the store to buy some food.

I see the potential for some creative writing on your part either as a writer of dramatic fiction or a journalist.

*Doesn't it? Have you read M.Atta's suicide note?
He had faith in a life beyond this one.*

Correction: he had a delusion of some life beyond this one.

*You mean, the correct religion would not advocate flying planes into buildings?*

Among other things.

*Once you give me $1000, I'll show you the purple dragon who lives in my garage.*

Since I have faith, the result is that I am not so credulous as to actually give you $1000.

*That's like saying that I'd see Cthulhu if I believed in Cthulhu, thus I should believe in Cthulhu.*

More accurately, it is exactly like saying that you'd see the truth if you believed in the truth, thus you should believe in the truth.

From my perspective, it seems ludicrous that I would have to tell you that since it is so obvious.
After all, refusing to believe in the truth and believing in lies are so OBVIOUSLY delusional.

*Happy hunting.*

No hunting involved.
The people that have them come to me.
They've tried the psychologist/medical doctor/pharmacist route only to find that doesn't work (who told them it would?).

*Ah, take the person to a psychiatrist?*

One must be quick to succeed at that.
One must get there before the psychiatrist commits suicide, and that is quite often easier said than done.

Besides, what does one do after one IS successful at getting them to psychiatrist before the psychiatrist commits suicide?
Does one merely watch the psychiatrist commit suicide, or does one wait until the psychiatrist talks the person into being suicidal also, and THEN watch the psychiatrist commit suicide?

As I said, a person is at a loss.

*I have a list of psycho-active substances (get your hands off it, Tiassa, it's mine!) used for treating mental illness.*

Witch doctors use sticks with feathers tied to them.
That is after the same psycho-active substances they use also, fail.

*Incidentally, I think this is going to be my field.*

Oh-oh.
You may want to "unleash your own personal hell" and buy a burial plot in advance.
Psycho-workers have a poor record of staying alive long enough to successfully purchase plots after starting to feel suicidal.

*Yes. But what you call "evidence" can be explained other ways.*

Atheists generally choose the way of calling it "not evidence," so your point stands.

*eh, perish in my own overcoming. Kewl.*

No, no, no, Xev.
Overcoming is WINNING, not being overcome.

*Can I use "Mapquest"?*

You can, but it won't help.

 

[Xev]

Tony:

You'd have to be actually doing that to charge for it.

Apparently, you've never met a consultant.

OTOH, that may uberabsurd.

"You highest men whom my eyes have seen , this is my doubt concerning you and my secret laughter: I guess that you would call my overman- a devil!"

He failed to stay alive, which would mean that he isn't the ubermensch.

Well, he never claimed to be. Zarathrusra commanded Eternity with his whip, not Nietzsche. Zarathrusra, Nietzsche's alter ego, did this, not Nietzsche (shut up Xev, you're just fantasizing). Nietzsche recognized that he wasn't Zarthrusra.

Besides, the ubermensch isn't necessarily immortal.

Who says that is extraordinary?
Is there an example of another instance of Homo Sapiens who has not done that?

Is there another animal on earth that is intelligent enough to do so.

He does?
And how do you know this?

Wild night with Herbert West. *Smiles*

My textbooks, Tony. Not very long dead, just a minute of clinical death, but still.....

Since hell is just the grave, I can see how "extraordinary" you would think it is for Man to toodle on down to the local cemetery and "unleash his own personal hell" by purchasing a burial plot.

Ha ha. Funny. You know I meant hell in the generic sense of "a place that totally sucks" (source: Websters)

Since I have faith, the result is that I am not so credulous as to actually give you $1000.

Rats.

Why do you have faith in God but not in me?

More accurately, it is exactly like saying that you'd see the truth if you believed in the truth, thus you should believe in the truth.

Fine. So what is truth?

From my perspective, it seems ludicrous that I would have to tell you that since it is so obvious.
After all, refusing to believe in the truth and believing in lies are so OBVIOUSLY delusional.

Circular logic.

No hunting involved.

Well than "God be with you as you fight the forces of evil".

Witch doctors use sticks with feathers tied to them.
That is after the same psycho-active substances they use also, fail.

Ah.

Oh-oh.
You may want to "unleash your own personal hell" and buy a burial plot in advance.
Psycho-workers have a poor record of staying alive long enough to successfully purchase plots after starting to feel suicidal.

Meh, I've outgrown suicide. Too much the Absurdist, I suppose.

No, no, no, Xev.
Overcoming is WINNING, not being overcome.

*Shrugs*
Nietzsche would say that the weak would perish in their overcoming.
I don't think I will.

You can, but it won't help.

Drat.

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Xev
Apparently, you've never met a consultant.*

Even consultants have to consult...er...or at least sit next to a dictionary which defines the word "consultant."

*"You highest men whom my eyes have seen , this is my doubt concerning you and my secret laughter: I guess that you would call my overman- a devil!"*

How uniquely accurate!
I would call his overman a devil!

*Well, he never claimed to be. Zarathrusra commanded Eternity with his whip, not Nietzsche. Zarathrusra, Nietzsche's alter ego, did this, not Nietzsche (shut up Xev, you're just fantasizing). Nietzsche recognized that he wasn't Zarthrusra.*

Presumably, he also recognized that he wasn't the pot he peed in, either.

*Besides, the ubermensch isn't necessarily immortal.*

Actually, it is necessarily immortal.
Unless, of course, you define ubermensch as corpse.

*Is there another animal on earth that is intelligent enough to do so.*

Let me see if I understand you clearly.
You think man is extraordinary because pigs have not flown to the moon?

*My textbooks, Tony. Not very long dead, just a minute of clinical death, but still.....*

But still, nothing.
Let's leave the body lying around until it is cold and stiff, and then see.

*Ha ha. Funny. You know I meant hell in the generic sense of "a place that totally sucks" (source: Websters)*

Since that is an invalid definition, I must needs presume that you are a Catholic.

*Why do you have faith in God but not in me?*

Faith in God actually works.
Nothing personal, but I have the feeling that faith in you would be much like trying to walk around on a broken ankle.

*Fine. So what is truth?*

That which is true.

*Circular logic.*

I was afraid you'd say that.
But mostly, because it isn't actually circular, merely very, very obvious.

*Well than "God be with you as you fight the forces of evil".*

It's no fight.
They've already lost.

*Meh, I've outgrown suicide. Too much the Absurdist, I suppose.*

Hah!
You may say that now, but let's see what you say after you've been "tested" by the insane forces of psychiatry!!

*Nietzsche would say that the weak would perish in their overcoming.
I don't think I will.*

So, you're either no Nietzschean, or you see yourself as not weak, not perishing and/or not overcoming.

 

[Jenyar]

Xev

I was particularly intrigued with your original post, but so much has been said in the meanwhile that I've lost the thread

It seems to me that if you need to forgive God in order to believe in Him, that what He is asking you to do. Impossible? If you can't even forgive the people committing all those atrocities, how can you be expected to forgive a God who caused them to imagine them? But aren't you blaming God for things that you don't ascribe to Him in the first place?

And if you did ascribe bad things to Him, you should also ascribe the good (the conclusion Job came to). It is through suffering that Christians learn to have faith.

 

[tony1]

Re: Xev

*Originally posted by Jenyar
It is through suffering that Christians learn to have faith. *

Whoa, whoa.
"Suffer" in King James English means "to undergo."
It doesn't mean to be in pain all of the time, which is more of a Catholic concept.

Besides, faith doesn't come from "suffering" whether painful or not.
It comes from hearing the word of God.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Romans 10:17, KJV).

What a person learns most from pain-type suffering is a desire to avoid it.

 

[machaon]

The original sin....

Man is born degraded and tainted by the origional sin

Sure. If the original sin is to stay alive long enough to procreate.

 

[That One Guy]

Is there another animal on earth that is intelligent enough to do so.
-Xev

Going to space was just man's way of getting his ass out of some other problem he created with his intelligence.

 

[Xev]

Tony:

Since that is an invalid definition, I must needs presume that you are a Catholic.

I think you might have missed "I am an athiest" a few times.

You're right, though, I am using a definition not well supported by Scripture. So, sorry, my bad.

But that wasn't my point. My point was that, as degraded from the Ultimate Power as man may be, he is still capable of much.

Faith in God actually works.
Nothing personal, but I have the feeling that faith in you would be much like trying to walk around on a broken ankle.

Personal enough, but true. At least for you.

So, you're either no Nietzschean, or you see yourself as not weak, not perishing and/or not overcoming.

I don't know. If I can't withstand it, I won't deserve to withstand it. "Nur uberlaut das starke"

Jenyar:

It seems to me that if you need to forgive God in order to believe in Him, that what He is asking you to do. Impossible? If you can't even forgive the people committing all those atrocities, how can you be expected to forgive a God who caused them to imagine them? But aren't you blaming God for things that you don't ascribe to Him in the first place?

I'm not blaming Him for anything. I hate humans. I don't believe in Him. I'd love Him if I did. If I could believe.

 

[Godless]

Atta was dillusional?..

Hey!, Tony really? was Atta dilusional for believing in an afterlife?

so what that make you?.

Quote: "Correction: he had a delusion of some life beyond this one."

Is not the christian religion belive the same "CRAP"?

That the good and brainless faithful ones go to heaven, and all others end up in hell?.

Same dilusion different religion? which is right?

 

[tony1]

Re: Atta was dillusional?..

*Originally posted by Godless
Is not the christian religion belive the same "CRAP"?

That the good and brainless faithful ones go to heaven, and all others end up in hell?.*

Nope.
The good and faithful live forever and everyone else is ashes.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Malachi 4:3, KJV).

 

[(Q)]

The good and faithful live forever and everyone else is ashes.

Could you be good without being faithful and not be left for ashes ?

 

[tony1]

I'm guessing no.

 

[(Q)]

If no, then that could open up an interesting can-o-worms, so to speak.

A person might go through life doing a lot of good without asking anything in return. That person might have saved a number of lives, and perhaps in doing so, lost their life in the process. I think you get the picture. That person was not faithful.

Ashes ?

 

[tony1]

No can of worms.

No one can be good enough, since one slip means that you are less than perfect.
No amount of "goodness" will make up for lack of perfection.

As for ashes?
Yes, ashes.

The idea of people "burning" forever in a fire that can't actually burn anything is a Catholic fiction.

 

[Godless]

Actually!

The idea of people "burning" forever in a fire that can't actually burn anything is a Catholic fiction.

Yes Tony, that is fiction and by that been fiction it also makes the Christian idealogy fiction as well, for all theistic idealogy is fiction of primitive mind set such as yours!!.

BTW, how are you doing Tony1?

 

[tony1]

Re: Actually!

*Originally posted by Godless
Yes Tony, that is fiction and by that been fiction it also makes the Christian idealogy fiction as well,*

With that kind of reasoning, atheism has just been proven idiotic because the hindus throw corpses into the Ganges.

Allow me to explain it to you, Godless.
1. the Catholics are wrong.
2. You know that.
3. Catholicism has nothing to do with Christianity, other than borrowing some stuff to use as symbols.
4. Christianity is still right while at the same time Catholicism is completely wrong.

*for all theistic idealogy is fiction of primitive mind set such as yours!!*

How about your primitive mind set?
You know, the one that thinks it can figure things out for itself.

BTW, the grave looms ahead for you.
Have you figured out how to get out of it?

*BTW, how are you doing Tony1? *

Great, and you, Julio?