For the Creationists

[mountainhare]

I just wanted to ask you a quick question.

You assert that the supposed irreducible complexity of life is indicative of A designer (singular).

How do you know that there is only one designer? If you are indeed correct, and life is irreducibly complex, why couldn't it be a product of more than one designer?

For example, one designer created predators, whereas another created prey.

One designer created terrestrial animals, another created aquatic.

One designer created parasites, another created hosts.

And so on and on.

How is irreducible complexity indicative of only ONE designer? Why not multiple designers?

 

[darksidZz]

Because they're fools and the religious nonsense they believe tells them there is only 1. They don't use reasoning here my friend, they use cold hard ignorance as their truth.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

It could be, but this is a phenomenom that we will never understand, and even if there are many Gods, the unification of all those Gods comes down to 1.

 

[SkinWalker]

I just wanted to ask you a quick question.

You assert that the supposed irreducible complexity of life is indicative of A designer (singular).

Irreducible complexity has been thoroughly debunked and demonstrated to be nonsense.

Surely there aren't people that still believe it to be a real issue after it's primary proponent was unable to answer the most basic criticisms of the claim?

 

[Saquist]

I just wanted to ask you a quick question.

You assert that the supposed irreducible complexity of life is indicative of A designer (singular).

How do you know that there is only one designer? If you are indeed correct, and life is irreducibly complex, why couldn't it be a product of more than one designer?

For example, one designer created predators, whereas another created prey.

One designer created terrestrial animals, another created aquatic.

One designer created parasites, another created hosts.

And so on and on.

How is irreducible complexity indicative of only ONE designer? Why not multiple designers?

Logic indicates if there is to be a design project there shall be one designer.
The universe and life it's self follow all of the same laws and mathematical equals are prelevant throughout the system which we live. There is even a connection between the living and the non-living.

As Christians we KNOW that God used his son to create all things. God and Jesus had a hand in the design and production of the universe. While the bible is silent on the angels participation Col 1:15 tells us that Jesus is the first of all creation and that through him everthing else was created.

Thus there were at least two individuals involved. Angels have had a long standing purpose as messenger and executor's of God's will, perhaps they too participated in the creation of all that is.

God and Jesus are two different persons. They have two different names and have occupied seperate places. One has always existe the other the bible tells us was created.

John 1:1, under propper translation shows us that while Jesus could be considered a "god" like satan is the "god" of this system or Dagan, Zeus and other dieties. God himself expressed as "he who causes to become" is the sole owner of the title "true God" as expressed by the Tetragrammaton and the Greek words defining "a god" and "true god"

Logic dictates One thread and one harmonious system reflects one purpose of one dominating will. It's idealogical but logical.

 

[spidergoat]

What's harmonious about the universe? It's full of exploding suns, colliding galaxies, uncountable numbers of planets too hot or cold for life, rocks zooming around...

 

[lightgigantic]

I just wanted to ask you a quick question.

You assert that the supposed irreducible complexity of life is indicative of A designer (singular).

How do you know that there is only one designer? If you are indeed correct, and life is irreducibly complex, why couldn't it be a product of more than one designer?

For example, one designer created predators, whereas another created prey.

One designer created terrestrial animals, another created aquatic.

One designer created parasites, another created hosts.

And so on and on.

How is irreducible complexity indicative of only ONE designer? Why not multiple designers?

in the vedas there is the distinction between sarga (original creation) and visarga (secondary creation) - sarga is related to god (his creation involves the creation of the very fabric that material phenomena is manifested from, like subtle things such as the time factor) and visarga is related to the creation of Lord Brahma (the original material entity of the material universe, and since there being uncountable universes there are uncountable Lord Brahmas) who deals with such gross things as atoms and planets (and from Lord Brahma you get personalities such as the prajapatis who are held as being responsible in the production of certain species)

In other words god (vishnu) does the actual creation and there are a host of personalities who do the engineering (and BTW part of their engineering discipline involves being divinely inspired by vishnu)

 

[ashura]

Logic indicates if there is to be a design project there shall be one designer.

No it doesn't. You could have 5 people sitting around a table talking about how to design a prize winning miniature city with many different moving parts. You could also have 5 gods floating around talking about how to design an interesting universe with x laws and y equals that work together perfectly all the time.

Logic dictates One thread and one harmonious system reflects one purpose of one dominating will. It's idealogical but logical.

How can you call this logical? It's simple and convenient, but it doesn't change the million other possibilities.

 

[James R]

Saquist:

Logic indicates if there is to be a design project there shall be one designer.
The universe and life it's self follow all of the same laws and mathematical equals are prelevant throughout the system which we live. There is even a connection between the living and the non-living.

Logic dictates One thread and one harmonious system reflects one purpose of one dominating will. It's idealogical but logical.

Your logic is flawed.

Microsoft Windows is an operating system where many aspects follow the same orderly set of "rules". There are connections between all parts of the system.

You would conclude from this that Windows must have had a single designer - a single person who wrote the whole operating system.

 

[Michael]

Logic indicates if there is to be a design project there shall be one designer.
..
Logic dictates One thread and one harmonious system reflects one purpose of one dominating will. It's idealogical but logical.

Where did you pull that "Logic" from? Your arse/the Bible/Torah/Qur'an


So.. using this "logic" a Boeing was all designed by one person.:bugeye:

 

[Pez11]

I'd have to agree with the idea that there was more than one 'hand' involved.
Maybe there was one 'main designer' who in an attempted to save money, subcontracted to another 'designer' that hired cheap foreign labor. How else do you explain the Duck-billed Platypus? Someone must have spilled coffee on the blue prints, or they had a few left over parts and decided to throw one more item together to pad the bill. What about the asteroid belt? I think someone connected the red and white wires by mistake and... 'boom!'
"SHIT! Ok, bill him for 9 instead of 10"

 

[Saquist]

Saquist:

Your logic is flawed.

I'm afraid not.

Microsoft Windows is an operating system where many aspects follow the same orderly set of "rules". There are connections between all parts of the system.

You would conclude from this that Windows must have had a single designer - a single person who wrote the whole operating system.

And yet all the peripheral programs must CONFORM to a system which has already been established. Thus there was a colaboration but...none of them are in conflict with the grand purpose...otherwise the whole would not function if the body members were in conflict. Thus they are subservient. Like Jesus and the Angels are to God's purpose who established the system.

What's harmonious about the universe? It's full of exploding suns, colliding galaxies, uncountable numbers of planets too hot or cold for life, rocks zooming around...

All of that occuring in a predictable pattern of mathematical and orderly equations. All four forces ballanced propperly in proportion. EM and Gravity working in tangent as checks and balances predictably mainting harmony.

No it doesn't. You could have 5 people sitting around a table talking about how to design a prize winning miniature city with many different moving parts. You could also have 5 gods floating around talking about how to design an interesting universe with x laws and y equals that work together perfectly all the time.

And still there must be a task master among the five. A leader and head. A person that maintains a time table and gives cohesian to that purpose.

How can you call this logical? It's simple and convenient, but it doesn't change the million other possibilities.

the existence of millions of possibilties does not exlude a logical conclusion. A seemless intergrated system. One times One is always One.

 

[lightgigantic]

Where did you pull that "Logic" from? Your arse/the Bible/Torah/Qur'an


So.. using this "logic" a Boeing was all designed by one person.:bugeye:

certainly there must have been a singular designer for a Boeing, since it it is very difficult to understand how all the parts were assembled together by persons not working under some sort of authority (perhaps the authority was made up of a committee, but once the resolutions of the committee are established, everyone just follows suit)

 

[James R]

Saquist:

You missed the point,

And yet all the peripheral programs must CONFORM to a system which has already been established. Thus there was a colaboration but...none of them are in conflict with the grand purpose...otherwise the whole would not function if the body members were in conflict. Thus they are subservient.

Who established the system? No one person. The system was built from the ground up by a team. You might even say it evolved. Compare Windows 3.1 to Windows Vista, for example. Vista had not been "already established" in any sense when Windows 3.1 was first marketed. And yet there is a clear line of descent that can be traced between 3.1 and Vista.

 

[TW Scott]

There could be certainly mulitple designers. Of course considering the bascially indescribably nature of a Creator there could have multiple yet one. A being capable of creating the universe would be quite easily able to divide it's attention among infinite angles.

 

[lightgigantic]

There could be certainly mulitple designers. Of course considering the bascially indescribably nature of a Creator there could have multiple yet one. A being capable of creating the universe would be quite easily able to divide it's attention among infinite angles.

yet when you start talking about the creation of elements such as time and space, it is very difficult to comprehend how such things could be developed by several personalities

 

[Michael]

certainly there must have been a singular designer for a Boeing,

:bugeye: uuuhhh NO... there a MANY MANY MANY people that contributed to the design of a Boeing. Some have knowledge of the metallurgy that will be used to make the plane and it's components - for exmaple: the computers, speaking of which - some people write code for special computer programs to fly the airplane while many others write code for computers that allow some others to work in collaboration on the aerodynamics for the plane - then of course we need to talk about the machines that make those computers. Oh, and the engineers that make the components of those machines, probably in China now, and the mathematicians that made those designs and theory that led the engeneetrs to make the machines that make those computers that are used by the specialists that test the aerodynamics and this is the plane that Jack built


one person??? Not by a long shot mate!

 

[Michael]

So, actually, if we follow the logic the Hindi and Shinto et.al. are right! There logically must be many designers/Gods.

Cool - well, now that that's settled - can we start out by getting the Xians, Jews and Muslims (whom can now plainly see their obvious error) to admit their mistake, become polytheists and also, maybe ... .... if you don't mind, to stop killing yourselves as well as one another...

ThaX for that!
Michael

 

[lightgigantic]

:bugeye: uuuhhh NO... there a MANY MANY MANY people that contributed to the design of a Boeing. Some have knowledge of the metallurgy that will be used to make the plane and it's components - for exmaple: the computers, speaking of which - some people write code for special computer programs to fly the airplane while many others write code for computers that allow some others to work in collaboration on the aerodynamics for the plane - then of course we need to talk about the machines that make those computers. Oh, and the engineers that make the components of those machines, probably in China now, and the mathematicians that made those designs and theory that led the engeneetrs to make the machines that make those computers that are used by the specialists that test the aerodynamics and this is the plane that Jack built


one person??? Not by a long shot mate!

and all these different persons work under the authority of a designer (or more realistically, a committee that establishes the standards for the design of a boeing) who assembles all the bits and pieces.
This is why there is the commonly held position of "project manager" or "project manager steering committee" in such endeavors, and it also explains why certain individuals/corporations can be relied upon to produce boeings and why certain others can be relied upon to produce can openers, even though both require engineers, metallurgy etc

 

[lightgigantic]

So, actually, if we follow the logic the Hindi and Shinto et.al. are right! There logically must be many designers/Gods.

Cool - well, now that that's settled - can we start out by getting the Xians, Jews and Muslims (whom can now plainly see their obvious error) to admit their mistake, become polytheists and also, maybe ... .... if you don't mind, to stop killing yourselves as well as one another...

ThaX for that!
Michael

What makes you think that Hinduism culminates in the view that there are many gods held as being ultimately and independently responsible for the creation of the universe?