For the alternative theorists:

And so you say. In any case, if I do not understand panspermia then please forget I compared my opinion with it.

In some respects it's a bit like saying you enjoy apple pie - except for the apples.

Panspermia is, in short, the idea that life arose elsewhere and was transported to earth via meteorite. If you don't agree with the transport of life via meteorites then you donj't agree with panspermia. Just like if you don't enjoy the apples in apple pie, then you don't enjoy apple pie.
 
Whoa...Trippy, please do not misunderstand what I Posted, please...please!
I was merely expressing my incredulousness that what I Grok'd nearly 45 years ago earned me a "nod in agreement".

I have not gotten a lot of them in the past 10-months or so on SciForums.

So...I completely understood that you were explicitly stating that I did understand!

FRair enough then.
 
Panspermia is, in short, the idea that life arose elsewhere and was transported to earth via meteorite. .

Does it say exactly that, or that primordial life was transported to Earth, and/or the ingrediants of the chemical soup, or some additive necessary to get life started was transported to Earth.
I see both being covered by the terminology.
Or are they both variations of Panspermia?
 
Right, but the problem is evolution permits the existence of mutually exclusive biomes. Chirality is a factor in abiogenesis, and solving the chirality problem is one of the areas of active research. One of the things you will learn as you progress your education in science is that sometimes the answer is "I don't know, but here are some likely possibilities consistent with the evidence."

How is chirality a factor in abiogenesis? Both types of organisms can start to assemble under the same external conditions regardless of what is the ratio between L and D proteins in the environment, isn't that right? And didn't we already explain with evolution why we would only see left-handed amino acids in proteins of today?

It's not just that one population dies off more likely due to some initially small imbalance, it's that larger population produces more of their own chirality molecules as byproduct of their existence, thus magnifying the effect. The genocide of right-handed amino acids would have happened at exponential rate, pretty quickly in terms of thousands of years I'd guess.


There are two ways that earth could have gained amino acids. The first one is they were formed locally, the second one is that they were formed remotely and delivered to earth in its remote past.

Billions of tons of protein arrived to Earth riding on meteorites? C'mon, the Earth had everything it could ever wish for to create you and me having this conversation, and that's exactly what she intended to do, apparently. We are both just puppets, slaves to our cells, molecules and atoms. These little vampires are riding us from the inside, controlling us like a Nintendo.


The actual truth of the matter, in my opinion anyway, is that the truth is probably that earth was manufacturing its own amino acids, and there was a load delivered to the earth by meteorites and comets at the same time Earths supply of water was delivered. The evidence suggests that this mixture was heterochiral. Whether or not it was heterochiral enough to give rise to the homochiral biome we see today is a seperate question that needs to be addressed. We may yet find that there was a chiral substrate of some kind involved - quartz being an example of this.

Is there any question that abiogenesis can not with equal success assemble organisms of both chiralities? Is there any question that it could not have easily been the other way around so that right-handed amino acids won the battle over the Earth? In other words, do we expect that alien lifeforms on other planets similar to our planet would also use left-handed amino acids or do we believe the chance is really 50-50% for either one. Isn't there also a chance there could be mixed ratio of both chiralities on a single planet?


The issue of chirality means they don't eat the same food because digestion involves enzymes and enzymes have a handedness, and even if they could the amino acids they extracted would be unusable.

Can you really say there can not exist such enzyme that could break apart either chirality molecules and still continue to function as usual? What if there was an organism that utilized both chiralities in its design and functionality so it could live in either type of environment equally well? Or how about two organisms of different chirality forming a symbiotic relation and eventually merging into a single organism utilizing both chiralities?


Digestion does not racemise amino acids. If it did we'd need to eat twice as much. Converting one enantiomer into another is a chemical rearrangement, not a physical one.

But new left-handed amino acids are created from simpler molecules or atoms somewhere in consumption/digestion process, right?


Do you think that right handed DNA can combine with left handed DNA? And I suspect that if you injected yourself with blood based on right handed amino acids that your body would think it was foreign material and your immune system would react to it as such.

I didn't know about it before you told me, and I couldn't imagine the effect would be so drastic, so I find it very interesting.
 
Does it say exactly that, or that primordial life was transported to Earth, and/or the ingrediants of the chemical soup, or some additive necessary to get life started was transported to Earth.
I see both being covered by the terminology.
Or are they both variations of Panspermia?

That's not the point I was making - it's the transport by meteorites that's the central theme, and that's what humble telescope objects to. You can't have panspermia without some form of transport, so either it's meteorites or alens.
 
with that one sentence you have said it all.

We did create life out of inorganic materials. It created itself to conserve the energy of the system, just usual action-reaction and paths of the least resistance. You just don't like it because it's artificial. But if we leave it there for a few millions of years who knows what kind of animals would come crawling out of there, with their claws and fangs, and eyes, heaps of eyes.
 
That's not the point I was making - .

I'm not arguing that point, I agree.
I'm asking is the definition of Panspermia, more than just the possible transporation of life.
Does it also cover in the definition, the transportation of chemically reactive stuff to make life.
I wasn't sure.
 
Actually, molecules can control what atoms do.

I'm talking about general logic and semantics, about a definition, rather than anything practical or specific. "Interaction" is always action-reaction based type of recursive system, the whole trick is to be careful about circular logic and falling into self-referencing contradiction trap. We can indeed say molecules control what atoms do, but we must not forget what molecules do is just an effect of what atoms do. It is important to separate what is action and what is reaction, i.e. direction of causality. So in that sense we can not say molecules rule over atoms because the initial action always comes from those atoms, or from within them.
 
We did create life out of inorganic materials. It created itself to conserve the energy of the system, just usual action-reaction and paths of the least resistance.
it doesn't say on the site how you solved the racemic separation problem, or did i miss it?
But if we leave it there for a few millions of years who knows what kind of animals would come crawling out of there, with their claws and fangs, and eyes, heaps of eyes.
i don't know.
all the "organic material" i've ever sat on the curb soon rotted into a smelly pile of goo and soon disappeared.
i would imagine the same thing would happen with a bigger pile.
 
I have two textbooks. Brock Biology of Microorganisms and Human Evolutionary Genetics. One of which is just sitting on my couch right now. Ask me questions, I may engage in conversion and it may help me remember the scientific information better.

You linked a creationist website, that's the only reason for this post.

:EDIT:

I also have General Chemistry, Fundamentals of Physics, University Physics, but I don't think you care about calculus or linear algebra or whatever.


A creationist website? You linked a creationist website?

:EDIT:

Oh yeah, and I did your post before it got deleted days ago, it was not very impressive... Are you intimated by me and want want to dominate me?

(Maybe the moderators don't this EDIT but I... need some catharsis too. And if I provoke -it may help learns scientific information in my textbooks! :p)
 
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I wonder if Trippy will take the time.

No, actually I don't. I doubt he will take the time.
 
How is chirality a factor in abiogenesis?
I've already explained this to you.

Both types of organisms can start to assemble under the same external conditions regardless of what is the ratio between L and D proteins in the environment, isn't that right? And didn't we already explain with evolution why we would only see left-handed amino acids in proteins of today?
No, only when we start off with an excess of left handed amino acids to begin with, even then, it may not be the best answer.

It's not just that one population dies off more likely due to some initially small imbalance, it's that larger population produces more of their own chirality molecules as byproduct of their existence, thus magnifying the effect. The genocide of right-handed amino acids would have happened at exponential rate, pretty quickly in terms of thousands of years I'd guess.
You're speculating. And what if right handed amino acid based life arose before lefthanded?

Billions of tons of protein arrived to Earth riding on meteorites? C'mon, the Earth had everything it could ever wish for to create you and me having this conversation, and that's exactly what she intended to do, apparently.
Yes, we get it, you object to the idea of panspermia or related ideas, even though there's good evidence to support them. Just as well actual scientists aren't as narrow minded as you are. By the way, the only person talking about billions of tons of protein is you. I said amino acids.

Is there any question that abiogenesis can not with equal success assemble organisms of both chiralities? Is there any question that it could not have easily been the other way around so that right-handed amino acids won the battle over the Earth?
There is no physico-chemical reason why they shouldn't be - hence the problem of homochirality.

In other words, do we expect that alien lifeforms on other planets similar to our planet would also use left-handed amino acids or do we believe the chance is really 50-50% for either one. Isn't there also a chance there could be mixed ratio of both chiralities on a single planet?
If you have been reading my replies to you, you would already know the answer to this question.

Can you really say there can not exist such enzyme that could break apart either chirality molecules and still continue to function as usual? What if there was an organism that utilized both chiralities in its design and functionality so it could live in either type of environment equally well? Or how about two organisms of different chirality forming a symbiotic relation and eventually merging into a single organism utilizing both chiralities?
Based on my understanding of how enzymes work? Yes, I'm reasonably confident. As for the rest of your speculations, have you taken in anything I have said about chiralities and toxicity?

But new left-handed amino acids are created from simpler molecules or atoms somewhere in consumption/digestion process, right?
No, proteins are broken into amino acids and other contituents then absorbed or excreted as required.

I didn't know about it before you told me, and I couldn't imagine the effect would be so drastic, so I find it very interesting.
...

I'm talking about general logic and semantics, about a definition, rather than anything practical or specific. "Interaction" is always action-reaction based type of recursive system, the whole trick is to be careful about circular logic and falling into self-referencing contradiction trap. We can indeed say molecules control what atoms do, but we must not forget what molecules do is just an effect of what atoms do. It is important to separate what is action and what is reaction, i.e. direction of causality. So in that sense we can not say molecules rule over atoms because the initial action always comes from those atoms, or from within them.
There are these funny things called emergent properties that molecules have that are not present when we consider the individual atom. The example I gave - n-butanol versus tert-butanol. They have all of the same atoms, they're just just arranged differently so have different emergent properties and different chemistry. Same with the difference between D-thalidomide, and L-thalidomide - they have all the same atoms, but arranged differently, and so they have different emergent properties as a molecule.
 
i wonder what trippy would have to say about what the site presented.
did you even look at it?

yes.
do you dispute anything it presents?

I wonder if Trippy will take the time.

No, actually I don't. I doubt he will take the time.

I got as far as this:
...Despite some evasion by major evolutionary propagandists...
And closed the link.

I have no time for sources that use this kind of language.
 
it doesn't say on the site how you solved the racemic separation problem, or did i miss it?

Both chiral forms are equally stable and equally reactive, both can assemble the same stuff (only mirrored) with equal probability given the same external conditions. There is no any racemic separation problem, it's initial conditions or evolution problem, for abiogenesis it's all the same.


i don't know.
all the "organic material" i've ever sat on the curb soon rotted into a smelly pile of goo and soon disappeared.
i would imagine the same thing would happen with a bigger pile.

They are not rotting, they are in conditions where they are multiplying.
 
If you would like me to understand what you said just answer the questions please:

1.) Do you mean free will is non-material, separate and independent from the laws of physics? No, yes?

2.) Can free will make a difference in the world of the laws of physics if it can not control those laws of physics? No, yes?



I have...

The laws of physics are what defines the laws of physics.
Free will is what defines free will.
Science is what we know: Philosophy is what we don't know.

But anyway.....
To the first question, yes and no. Both governed so to speak by Abiogenesis and Evolution.
To the second question, no, the laws of physics were governed by conditions at the BB.
But like I said, Science is what we know: Philosophy is what we don't know.
 
I'm asking is the definition of Panspermia, more than just the possible transporation of life.
Does it also cover in the definition, the transportation of chemically reactive stuff to make life.
I wasn't sure.

pan·sper·mi·a
panˈspərmēə/
noun
the theory that life on the earth originated from microorganisms or chemical precursors of life present in outer space and able to initiate life on reaching a suitable environment.

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One argument that supports the panspermia theory is the emergence of life soon after the heavy bombardment period of earth, between 4 and 3.8 billion years ago. During this period, researchers believe the Earth endured an extended and very powerful series of meteor showers. However, the earliest evidence for life on Earth suggests it was present some 3.83 billion years ago, overlapping with this bombardment phase. These observations suggest that living things during this period would have faced extinction, contributing to the idea that life did not originate on Earth.
http://helix.northwestern.edu/article/origin-life-panspermia-theory
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My own preferential method is in line with the following "or chemical precursors of life present in outer space and able to initiate life on reaching a suitable environment."
Keeping in mind, that the emergence of life via various chemical reactions is the difficult [though obviously not Impossible] part of the process. Once that has been done, life will in most circumstances adapt, survive, spread, and thrive.
 
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