Fanatical Debunkers VERSUS Woo-woo's

[(Q)]

The title of this thread is incorrect, "Fanatical Debunkers" is an oxymoron.

The title should read, "Debunkers VERSES Fanatical Woo-Woo's"

What's really funny about UFOlogists is that they bleat alien visitation assertions with no hard evidence whatsoever. They completely ignore the problems associated with space travel in favour of technologies far advanced than our own which apparently break the laws of physics. Of course, they ignore studying physics to begin with hence have no idea what they're talking about in the first place.

 

[A Canadian]

You poeple need to put a bit more thought into what I said. A guy can't use a simple simile to get a point across?

I'm not trying to bring politics into this.
And by facts, it doesn't have to be hard pysical evidence. World wide testimonys, contance government cover up. Sure some poeple make it up and even go to extream lengths to fake a UFO story. But when you've seen a UFO yourself, you suddenly turn into the village idiot.

phlogistician: Is it not a fact that governments massivly black line documents concerning UFOs, is it not a fact that poeple from all walks of life have reported UFOs? I wouldn't call it a religion... I've seen a UFO.... But I have not seen god... I do not worship dancing lights in the sky...

Lets just say, that I got crystal clear videos and pictures of a UFO whizzing throught the air, with 10 other eyewitnesses getting the same thing in differnt locations (Funny thing is, this HAS happened many times before). The majory of the world is still not going to belive what they see.

Denile. Ignorance.

And I feel the term "Woo Woo" is unfair, it automaticly defines us belivers to be wack jobs.

 

[JoojooSpaceape]

no decent theories.

Ehhhh, actually I don't think what they (the ufo fanatics) call theories actually qualify as a theory...

the·o·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-r, thîr)
n. pl. the·o·ries
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Most of the people announce their ideas (You know, the ones they call theories that don't quite meet the prerequisite involving the scientific method.) without giving it a second thought, or listening to anyone who they consider a skeptic, since skeptics clearly are just close minded people who won't listen to anyone... And if you honestly believe that skeptics are close minded people who wont listen to anyone elses ideas, then congratulations; You're a Hypocrite.

 

[Persol]

Again, trying to be fair to everyone involved I see no reason to dump the entire project simply because of a few minor problems you have with how they run thing's.

When someone says 'that isn't what I said'... and you still use them as a source, that isn't a 'minor problem'. It says that the list and quotes on the list aren't even verified with the people that supposedly said it. In other words, much of it could simply be ET mythos.

I also have some experience with running a website and understand why they make you pay.

So do I... and 8 bucks for a list of names is insane. Especially when this is your 'evidence' and you hide it were nobody can see it without payinjg or cheating.

Unless there are too many gaps which make no sense and the entire story seem's completely full of shit. Then I'll toss it into the pile of Ed Walters sightings.

Listen to the testimony. It's not internally consistent, generally not plausible, and much of it has nothing to do with UFOs or ET.

I think what seem's to be the problem is this; Some of you are looking for physcial evidence, and won't believe these UFO stories untill you see some.

We ALL believe in UFOs. The problem is claiming that UFOs are flown by ETs. This is a leap of logic you can't just guess at....

 

[Persol]

But when you've seen a UFO yourself, you suddenly turn into the village idiot.

No... you only turn into the village idiot when you take a picture of a UFO and claim it was ET.

 

[A Canadian]

No... you only turn into the village idiot when you take a picture of a UFO and claim it was ET.

You tell your own personal testimony and you are still a village idiot.
I told my friends about my sighting, they thought I was nuts, and they made fun of me. But geeeezzzzz, 2 of them saw their own UFO.

What bugs me is the hoaxers....
They make up stuff, fake pictures and videos.... which only leads other to belive that anything else someone says, is a hoax aswell.

I am more pissed off at the hoaxers than the debunkers really.

I'd also like to add to something phlogistician said about, believing in UFOs with ETs inside them, being a religion.

Religious beliefs bring a strong factor into the debunkers side of the story. Some religions have stories of ETs and Flying vessels and what not somewhere. But when it comes to the more main religions of North America. It says nothing about aliens. Thus, for a strong religious believer to think that god create other beings "in his own image???" to be completely false.

We used to think the earth was flat, we used to think witches where real... Both ideas where basically started by one man. Both we eventually proved them to be false. The idea of ETs and UFOs is pretty much vise versa. Our alien "friends?" have been around for quite some time.

There may not be DEFENATIVE PROOF that they do exist, but there is no PROOF that they do not.

Thing about ETs is that, as our technology improves, so will theirs.
Making it harder and harder for us to find the truth.
You think that if there is another species(s) of beings out there, that they won't advance their technology as well?


UFO may mean unidentified flying object, but, some of the stuff out there... not even a super powers TOP military secrets can even come close to compare to it.

 

[btimsah]

When someone says 'that isn't what I said'... and you still use them as a source, that isn't a 'minor problem'. It says that the list and quotes on the list aren't even verified with the people that supposedly said it. In other words, much of it could simply be ET mythos.

So do I... and 8 bucks for a list of names is insane. Especially when this is your 'evidence' and you hide it were nobody can see it without payinjg or cheating.
Listen to the testimony. It's not internally consistent, generally not plausible, and much of it has nothing to do with UFOs or ET.
We ALL believe in UFOs. The problem is claiming that UFOs are flown by ETs. This is a leap of logic you can't just guess at....

Well again, Persol. The hundred's of witnesses and their claims still stand untouched by you or me.

I am not sure what you're talking about, with the list. Is there a problem with the list? Even so, it does not in anyway erase the entire testimony of every witness. I am really only interested in each individual witness, and this program just happens to gather them together. These people are in industries which are very important to the UFO/ETI subject. FAA/Air controllers. Navy, Airforce, Military... etc.

I also have no clue what you mean by, internally consistant. These are extremely different people, reporting extremely different circumstances about extremely different subjects. Why would they be "internally consistant"?

See, again I feel you just created some reason to claim they were false without actually realizing that it does not pertain to the substance to any of the claims. Why?

Several claim UFO'S which they saw were driven by ETI.

 

[btimsah]

But when you've seen a UFO yourself, you suddenly turn into the village idiot.

This is a great point, really. A-CANADIAN, when our government records a UFO on video according to John Callahan in 1986 he tells of the Japanese UFO incident in which a UFO is recorded trailing an airplane for like 31 minutes. Ground, air and radar conformation.

As he explains, the Reagan scientific staff was;

"They were very, very excited about the data. They had said that this was the only time a UFO was ever recorded on radar for any length of time where it is 30 some minutes."

Now, they did not analyze the shit out of it to make up unrealistic excuses for it not be alien or ETI. They studied it and assumed it was an incredible technological insight into ETI. This is what he claims, and I believe he has a lot of evidence to prove it. You can read his story below.

So - not everyone takes UFO'S and debunks or dismisses them immediately And they are certainly not kooks. Reagan talked about an "alien threat", perhaps this is why? He stated; "Perhaps we need some outside alien threat to unite us all".

http://extraterrestrial-life.net/John_Callahan.htm

 

[btimsah]

In some way's I do fear that if they have, and are still hiding the complete truth about ETI, that it would be a bad thing.

In other words - they arent pretty. They are not nice. Their technology much supperior than our's and would make us litterally scared. Why else would it work? If they were loving adorable little aliens who love everyone and throw up peace signs - what would the threat be?

I am leaning toward the assumption that some aliens are hostile, or unfriendly. Why else hide it? This of course assumes they are.

 

[btimsah]

- In more detail here are some quotes from President Reagan over the years.

June 1982:

Following a private White House screening of Spielberg's film "E.T", the President quietly commented to Mr. Spielberg. "You know, there aren't six people in this room who know just how true that really is." Unfortunately, a press of people coming forward to congratulate him prevented Spielberg from pursuing the point further. Spielberg reportedly told this to Jamie Shandera shortly after it happened.

December 4th, 1985:

While addressing a group of high school students in Fallston Maryland..." I couldn't help but say to Gorbachev, just think how easy his task and mine might be...if suddenly there was a threat to this world from some other species from another planet outside in the universe. We'd forget all the little local differences ....between our countries....and find out once and for all that we really are all human."

September 21st, 1987:

Before the United Nations General Assembly: " In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment," said Reagan, "we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world. And yet, I ask you," he went on, "is not an alien threat already among us ? What could be more alien to universal aspirations of our peoples than war and the threat of war?"

May 5th, 1988:

As President Reagan leaves the White House on the way to Chicago. Talking about the importance of frankness; for a desire for peaceful solutions and wars he goes on to say..."But, I've often wondered what if all of us in the world discovered that we were threatened by an outer--a power from another planet." Reagan said. "Wouldn't we all of a sudden find that we didn't have any differences between us at all, we were all human beings, citizens of the world and wouldn't we come together to fight that particular threat?" The president said.

 

[phlogistician]

phlogistician: Is it not a fact that governments massivly black line documents concerning UFOs,

No, not really. The govt blackline documents that woowoos say concern UFOs, and then use the blacklining as 'evidence' of some sort of conspiracy. Maybe, the report covers stuff which is secret, terrestrial military technology, and not for public consumption? Whether secret or not, names will often be blacked out. Either way, you can't use what you don't have as proof of anything, that's absurd.

is it not a fact that poeple from all walks of life have reported UFOs?

Well, I'd love to see the demographic, and see if there is a category of person more likely to witness UFOs than others. So until we have that demographic, I can't agree with your statement. I'd say it was a fairly specific portion of the populace who were more likely to think what they saw was a UFO, people without much scientific background, or people prone to believe in the mysterious/religious/spiritual side of things. But I don't have data for that either.

I wouldn't call it a religion...

Hmm, staunchly believing things which have been proven almost impossible is dogma. Dogma is a trademark of religion!

I've seen a UFO.... But I have not seen god... I do not worship dancing lights in the sky...

Not everybody who believes in god indulges in formal worship either. UFOlogy fills a void in your life, as does religion in others. You embrace it without evidence, and on subjective experience.

Lets just say, that I got crystal clear videos and pictures of a UFO whizzing throught the air, with 10 other eyewitnesses getting the same thing in differnt locations

Let's say you did. I'd love to see that footage. Sad thing is, all I've seen offered, it out of focus, tight zoomed, camera shaken, and completely out of context with it's surroundings, so impossible to determine size, or flight characteristics. But yes, say you did manage to get that footage, and good, independant witnesses. I'd listen, I'd watch, and I'd try to find an explanation.

(Funny thing is, this HAS happened many times before). The majory of the world is still not going to belive what they see.

Show us the footage then. Because I've _never_ seen good quality footage. Well, not of UFOs. I've seen a good quality film of an alien autopsy, but that was proven to be a fake, albeit a very well staged one.

Denile. Ignorance.

If you're going to talk about ignorance, you'd better learn how to spell 'denial' first kid.

And I feel the term "Woo Woo" is unfair, it automaticly defines us belivers to be wack jobs.

So? To believe some of this stuff requires suspension of belief of the laws of physics. That's like saying gravity doesn't exist. That makes folks whack jobs.

 

[A Canadian]

phlogistician bit of advice for you.

Go out and get laid.

or at the very least watch a UFO documentry once in a while.

Do more research before you even attempt to debunk. I am not going to waste my time replying to each one of thoes quotes. I am not going to waste my time with you.

You are clearly a fool.

 

[Ophiolite]

A Canadian
I would still welcome a reply to my earlier post in which I said

If you care to read my first post on this thread (I think it is the seventh) could you then explain in what way I meet your criteria for alien debunkers.

To remind other readers your criteria were:

A: They don't have all the facts.
and
B: People don't want to belive truth because of the harsh reality of the world. Better known as denile.

[In passing, I always thought denile was a big river that went through de country of Egypt. ]

 

[btimsah]

If a debunker got ahold of a "clear UFO" video or photograph they would still debunk it or claim it was a secret government craft and possibly fake. As I've argued on other boards like this one, no image or video will ever be accepted as hard evidence by debunkers. The perfect video will be claimed to be fake and the bad video is too BAD to make such a claim.

The best UFO video I've seen would be the STS 101 clip. After I watched debunker's debunk that video I realized how they would never conclude anything is alien. Apperently our government, according to many witnesses, consider's UFO'S to be ETI. Yet, debunker's do not, and consider ME and other's crazy if we do.

 

[Ophiolite]

If a debunker got ahold of a "clear UFO" video or photograph they would still debunk it or claim it was a secret government craft and possibly fake.

We know there are secret government craft. No one disputes this.
We do not know that UFO's belong to ET's.
If we obtain a video of what could be a secret, experimental craft (which we know exist), or an ET UFO (whose existence is speculative), scientific logic requires that we favour the more likely explanation.

 

[SkinWalker]

The best UFO video I've seen would be the STS 101 clip. After I watched debunker's debunk that video I realized how they would never conclude anything is alien.

Why would anyone believe something so far-fetched in favor of something far more prosaic such as some particulate effect in relation to the shuttle? An effect, by the way, that is well-documented and even expected on shuttle flights, particularly after thruster burns, which was the case in the SS Atlantis flight above.

Apperently our government, according to many witnesses, consider's UFO'S to be ETI.

Apparently, our government, according to many witnesses, accepts that a Jewish hippy killed over two-thousand years ago will return to take them to another world... Hell, I know of a government official that believes in Santaria. Government officials in several West African nations believe that there are witches that can harm them. Government officials in PNG think that there is a volcano that is a god to be fed. More at home, our government believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruciton that could hit the United States. I think the "government" believes a lot of shit, but I don't think that the government, as an entity, believes that there are alien ETI. There just isn't any evidence to support that hypothesis, the so-called "Disclosure Project" notwithstanding.

Yet, debunker's do not, and consider ME and other's crazy if we do.

As a skeptic of the UFO-ETI connection, I wouldn't call you crazy... gullible, but not crazy.

 

[phlogistician]

phlogistician bit of advice for you.

Go out and get laid.

Ha! That's rich, coming from you, a guy who was wringing his wrists and bleating about the fact he couldn't get a girlfriend in another thread! I don't need to go out to get laid, thanks, I have a long established satisfying domestic arrangement, but you know what? I don't think having sex with a stranger is suddenly going to make me think more like you.

or at the very least watch a UFO documentry once in a while.

Why do you think I'm a skeptic? Could it be that I've watched a fair few UFO documentaries, and never seen evidence that stands scrutiny?

Do more research before you even attempt to debunk.

Again, that's quite funny. I studied a degree in physics, thanks, so I think I've put in a fair amount of time there. I've watched a fair few documentaries, and read a fair number of websites. And you know what? I don't attempt to debunk, I _do_ debunk.

I am not going to waste my time replying to each one of thoes quotes. I am not going to waste my time with you.

Because you've got nothing to come back with.

You are clearly a fool.

As always, woowoos think they are better than others because they believe some bunk theory. Well, no, that's not the case. My IQ scores say I'm a freaking genius, as it happens, which is perhaps, why I've got a good academic record, and not some gullible woowoo?

 

[btimsah]

We know there are secret government craft. No one disputes this.
We do not know that UFO's belong to ET's.
If we obtain a video of what could be a secret, experimental craft (which we know exist), or an ET UFO (whose existence is speculative), scientific logic requires that we favour the more likely explanation.

Yes, I know. That was what I just said.

Claiming a UFO must be Experimental aircraft is an easy out for a debunker hellbent on proving EVERY UFO is not alien. It's the last option of a debunker. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, if you claim it's a top secret experimental craft you need extraordinary evidence. Not just a claim.

 

[btimsah]

Why would anyone believe something so far-fetched in favor of something far more prosaic such as some particulate effect in relation to the shuttle? An effect, by the way, that is well-documented and even expected on shuttle flights, particularly after thruster burns, which was the case in the SS Atlantis flight above.

Just to make sure, we are talking about this video:
http://members.cox.net/borobbie2/VIDEO/UFO_STS_101.mpeg

Perhaps you were referring to the "war" video everyone talks about. While I do think that one is interesting, I find STS 101 much more problematic for debunkers. They only have one logical explanation, one highly unlikely explanation. The idea that some UFO'S are ETI is not far-fetched to anyone but a debunker in my opinion.

Apparently, our government, according to many witnesses, accepts that a Jewish hippy killed over two-thousand years ago will return to take them to another world... Hell, I know of a government official that believes in Santaria. Government officials in several West African nations believe that there are witches that can harm them. Government officials in PNG think that there is a volcano that is a god to be fed. More at home, our government believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruciton that could hit the United States. I think the "government" believes a lot of shit, but I don't think that the government, as an entity, believes that there are alien ETI. There just isn't any evidence to support that hypothesis, the so-called "Disclosure Project" notwithstanding.

There are witnesses from inside our governement, and witnesses from outside it for the last 60 year's who have all said essentially the same thing. If you wish to ignore their claims and positions, in light of the UFO phenomon seen around the world for thousands of years - fine. I won't, it's unreasonable to.

As a skeptic of the UFO-ETI connection, I wouldn't call you crazy... gullible, but not crazy.

You fail to consider that the governement has covered up some of the UFO-ETI connection, yet call me gullible? That's funny..

 

[btimsah]

As always, woowoos think they are better than others because they believe some bunk theory. Well, no, that's not the case. My IQ scores say I'm a freaking genius, as it happens, which is perhaps, why I've got a good academic record, and not some gullible woowoo?

You think you are better than other's because of "My IQ score", so in the end you and Canadian are a match made in heaven! :m:

I think Canadian could have addressed what you said instead of just name calling. It's more of a sign of laziness, and not wanting to deal with you than anything though. You know, illustrate where someone is being a fool instead of calling them one!