faith
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But all belief has some form of basis and it is the basis for a belief that is important if the belief is to have meaning and be worthwhile.
If such a basis is supported by evidence and facts then that would justify such beliefs. If however, no such facts exist then the belief would be very difficult to justify.
Religious faith comes under the latter category of being factually baseless.
Well faith is the reason they still believe in god in the first place. Without having any faith they would god as another flawed concept.....we all have to have faith in something or life is a pretty miserable place. Faith is the fuel that feeds the need for people to view their life as a journey protected by a higher, all powerful, caring being. Without faith you have no god...:bugeye:
Re: Re: faith
It seems a lot of people need faith to give their lives meaning, but not everyone needs this to find meaning and joy in life.
Faith is a psychological crutch. Lose your faith and you are free to enjoy life for what it really is.
Re: Re: Re: faith
Well that would insinuate that god exists and is a tangible or intangible but still free thinking entity, and that his/her existence has nothing to do with my faith in him or not.
I am sorry i just responded to the question from a different perspective...infact the exact opposite of yours...you make a very good argument
Well that would insinuate that god exists and is a tangible or intangible but still free thinking entity, and that his/her existence has nothing to do with my faith in him or not.
I am sorry i just responded to the question from a different perspective...infact the exact opposite of yours...you make a very good argument
Re: Re: Re: faith
I am glad that you have found a higher way of living...kinda like NEO from the matrix...but many people see faith as a way of support, not exactly a crutch but more as a chill pill to keep their sanity intact.....it just depends how fanatical you are in following your faith. While very true that not everyone needs faith to give their life meaning it's just that many choose to, and many don't realize that they don't have to.... So the wiser and the unknowing all meet in the same pool of unknown believing..... i guess many people see the world today and choose to have faith in god in hope they will achieve a better place after they die.
I am glad that you have found a higher way of living...kinda like NEO from the matrix...but many people see faith as a way of support, not exactly a crutch but more as a chill pill to keep their sanity intact.....it just depends how fanatical you are in following your faith. While very true that not everyone needs faith to give their life meaning it's just that many choose to, and many don't realize that they don't have to.... So the wiser and the unknowing all meet in the same pool of unknown believing..... i guess many people see the world today and choose to have faith in god in hope they will achieve a better place after they die.
An interesting observation about protestants (it might apply
to other offshoots of christianity). 'Faith' is unconditionally
accepting that something will happen if you unconditionally
trust that 'God' will make it happen. For example, if you have
cancer and you are going to die then simply use 'Faith' as a tool
to get healed. Common sense tells you that this aint gonna'
happen and this is the paradox. If your 'Faith' is strong you'll
be living a healthy life again... and if there is any doubt or lack of
trust then you will get buried.
In essence it's almost a benefit of believing in 'God'. If you
believe, then you can apply 'Faith' and 'move mountains' (so
long as your not abusing it like a little selfish bastard). Attaining it
is of course the hard part and keeping it is even harder.
to other offshoots of christianity). 'Faith' is unconditionally
accepting that something will happen if you unconditionally
trust that 'God' will make it happen. For example, if you have
cancer and you are going to die then simply use 'Faith' as a tool
to get healed. Common sense tells you that this aint gonna'
happen and this is the paradox. If your 'Faith' is strong you'll
be living a healthy life again... and if there is any doubt or lack of
trust then you will get buried.
In essence it's almost a benefit of believing in 'God'. If you
believe, then you can apply 'Faith' and 'move mountains' (so
long as your not abusing it like a little selfish bastard). Attaining it
is of course the hard part and keeping it is even harder.
Crunchy Cat,
No, that is only 'pop protestantism', if I might call it that. People like to have tools or weapons in their hands with which they can clonk problems over the head. Whether you call it science, faith, religion or freedom - these are only words for concepts.
You and I know life doesn't work that way. I think what you are referring to is the belief that faith is a gift from God.
(Ef.2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.)
But you have to make the distinction between trusting God completely, and trusting your faith completely. As Dribbler said, faith is the god of some.
I think the big difference is that most people tend to think of themselves of climbing some ladder of success. Faith is not on that ladder. There is acceptance of the gift, and then as you realize its power, your faith grows. The way it grows depends on your resistance or acceptance of God's will.
The real problem is how much you are unfaithful. The strength of faith exists in the extent of which you hold on to God.
Most importantly:
1 Cor.13:2... if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
It is not hard to have faith. It's a simple mind-switch: God is real. What is hard is not to let go of it. This happens when the problems are bigger than your faith, and you forget that God is greater than any problem - whether you had faith or not. What happened to Peter when he doubted? He sank like a rock. Who held out his hand to save him? Jesus.
Our faith does not depend only on our own strength of will, it depends on whom we trust it to. People rest their faith on lots of things - things that make is feel strong and in control (the weapons I mentioned above). Which is why Jesus told the parable of the house on sand.
Sure, you might be able to believe as a Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu - or you might just be an individual who says that God probably exists - but at some stage you will begin to doubt your 'hold' on God. Everybody realizes at some stage that they cannot believe on inertia alone. We need a rock to rest our faith on.
Christians believe that God sent Jesus to be the rock to base our faith on. We are not strong enough on our own. Why did Jesus say he would be the stumbling block, the stone that the builders rejected? Because He was the example of faith. God bestowed His grace on Jesus as a sinless and innocent man, so that we who sin and are guilty can be saved through Him. That is faith.
No, that is only 'pop protestantism', if I might call it that. People like to have tools or weapons in their hands with which they can clonk problems over the head. Whether you call it science, faith, religion or freedom - these are only words for concepts.
You and I know life doesn't work that way. I think what you are referring to is the belief that faith is a gift from God.
(Ef.2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.)
But you have to make the distinction between trusting God completely, and trusting your faith completely. As Dribbler said, faith is the god of some.
I think the big difference is that most people tend to think of themselves of climbing some ladder of success. Faith is not on that ladder. There is acceptance of the gift, and then as you realize its power, your faith grows. The way it grows depends on your resistance or acceptance of God's will.
The real problem is how much you are unfaithful. The strength of faith exists in the extent of which you hold on to God.
Most importantly:
1 Cor.13:2... if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
It is not hard to have faith. It's a simple mind-switch: God is real. What is hard is not to let go of it. This happens when the problems are bigger than your faith, and you forget that God is greater than any problem - whether you had faith or not. What happened to Peter when he doubted? He sank like a rock. Who held out his hand to save him? Jesus.
Our faith does not depend only on our own strength of will, it depends on whom we trust it to. People rest their faith on lots of things - things that make is feel strong and in control (the weapons I mentioned above). Which is why Jesus told the parable of the house on sand.
Sure, you might be able to believe as a Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu - or you might just be an individual who says that God probably exists - but at some stage you will begin to doubt your 'hold' on God. Everybody realizes at some stage that they cannot believe on inertia alone. We need a rock to rest our faith on.
Christians believe that God sent Jesus to be the rock to base our faith on. We are not strong enough on our own. Why did Jesus say he would be the stumbling block, the stone that the builders rejected? Because He was the example of faith. God bestowed His grace on Jesus as a sinless and innocent man, so that we who sin and are guilty can be saved through Him. That is faith.
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Thanks for the response. 'pop'-religion. I like that. Anyhow,
I was only making an obvervation (3rd party perspective).
I think I may have confused you into thinking I am of a
religious/believing persuasion. I'm not (I'm about as hard
core as they come in terms of Athiesm). I seem to be
surrounded (friends/family) by Jews and Protestants so I
have the opportunity to make alot of observations, queries,
and comparisons.
-CC
I was only making an obvervation (3rd party perspective).
I think I may have confused you into thinking I am of a
religious/believing persuasion. I'm not
(I'm about as hardcore as they come in terms of Athiesm). I seem to be
surrounded (friends/family) by Jews and Protestants so I
have the opportunity to make alot of observations, queries,
and comparisons
.-CC
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
So, you blithely dismiss the faith of all Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, deeming it necessarily less viable than your faith in your silly Jesus story, with it's virgin birth and suicidal pigs? What arrogance!
I had that interpretation in mind while I was writing it, and I thought to myself: actually, I'm in the weakest position of all. In stead of just making the jump of believing in God and working from there, I base my faith on the life and resurrection of this man Jesus.
But somehow, with this association with him, my faith in God has only become stronger. I continuously experience a relationship. And there's no arguing with experience.
I agree with atheists in one respect: religion is a sane man's madness. But it's not stupidity, and at least in my case, definitely not arrogance. Other faiths are no less sincere, genuine or viable.
I was pointing out that the strength of my faith lies not with myself.
PS. What's your problem with the pigs?
But somehow, with this association with him, my faith in God has only become stronger. I continuously experience a relationship. And there's no arguing with experience.
I agree with atheists in one respect: religion is a sane man's madness. But it's not stupidity, and at least in my case, definitely not arrogance. Other faiths are no less sincere, genuine or viable.
I was pointing out that the strength of my faith lies not with myself.
PS. What's your problem with the pigs?
Crunchy Cat,
I had no reason to think you were religious. That doesn't mean you're not human. Your and my experience of life and people probably doesn't differ that much.
I can sympathize with your observation of shallow religion because I certainly have made the same observations. That does not mean there isn't a reasonable approach available - which is what I was describing.
The problem with faith isn't having it, it's losing it - from a religious perspective anyway.
Come on people, isn't it equally arrogant to dismiss anything I have to say out of hand? Did you even read the rest of my post? What about the parts that do make sense? After all, it's a testimony by someone who's "on the inside".
I had no reason to think you were religious. That doesn't mean you're not human. Your and my experience of life and people probably doesn't differ that much.
I can sympathize with your observation of shallow religion because I certainly have made the same observations. That does not mean there isn't a reasonable approach available - which is what I was describing.
The problem with faith isn't having it, it's losing it - from a religious perspective anyway.
Come on people, isn't it equally arrogant to dismiss anything I have to say out of hand? Did you even read the rest of my post? What about the parts that do make sense? After all, it's a testimony by someone who's "on the inside".
Are you sure this experience of yours is not just in your mind?
Those who hear about the experiences of schizophrenics might disagree with that. (Note, I was just using that as an example. I meant no other implications in that statement).
Jade,
It could be argued that all experience is subjective (i.e. "just in your mind"), but that won't help us much.
The real problem you have is how do you validate my "experience" of God. As you said, I might as well be schizophrenic and make the same claims. I have asked a few people (including some of my agnostic/atheist friends) and they seem convinced I am not schizophrenic or delusional. So my best answer is that in all other areas of my life I'm quite normal and reasnable. I wouldn't get away in court by pleading temporary insanity or paranoid delusion, even if I said something silly like "God/Satan made me do it". No-one would believe me.
Actually, my attempts are just as good (or bad) as yours. It "feels"like wisdom, but only in applying it does it make any difference in normal life. I can only say what I have "learned", and like any person, it is up to others to accept or reject my ïnsights". If things were more black and white, we wouldn't need a justice system, would we?
I have mentioned 'learning' about God. I mean that one's "knowledge/understanding" of God changes and grows as it is tested. Not scientifically tested, in the general sense of the word, but tested by life itself. I have suffered, persevered, it has built my character, and as a result I have reason to hope. It is a psychological fact, but an interesting side-product was faith. I put my hope in Christ, and when the experience/results were put into words it read: "God was faithful". I did not reach or "grasp" God, but I have gained faith in Him, and that faith has never disappointed me - I have often disappointed myself, and am often disappointed by others and by circumstances, I often doubt, but nothing ever reaches beyond faith. It would never occur to me even once to take credit for anything when credit so obviously (to me) belongs to God.
Finding God is a constant persuit. It isn't something that is owned. For some it is a persuit in vain, for others it is the most rewarding experience imaginable.
New Life,
I don't know that it is stated like that explicitly (not that I recall), but it certainly is the message that our rigteousness before God is by faith. Our faith as Christians is based on the resurrection of Jesus.
Romans 1 (NLT)
16For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes--Jews first and also Gentiles. 17This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."
Something that should be noted in this discussion of faith is that, while "faith" has both secular and religious meaning, the two perspectives are a little different. From a secular viewpoint (as it is demonstrated in X-Men 2), faith is something that bridges the gap between knowledge and reality, when empirical knowledge hasn't yet caught up with the present.
From a religious (at least Christian) POV, faith goes beyond the present, the belief in God or the unknown - it is closely connected to a living relationship with an unknown God, a rock that keeps on rolling, not a rock that is found and passed by. It is the very rope by which we are pulled out of the water and saved from drowning. Not something we can achieve by ourselves - we can merely hold on to it. Faith is the tool by which we are made "righteous" by a historical, present and future God, and this "righteousness" has no secular function. There's no getting past that in discussion - unless it is to point out the use of secular "faith" in religious circumstances, or vice versa. Keep both perspectives in mind when you read the following, and you'll see what I mean:
Rom. 10: 3
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes [has faith in Him].
It could be argued that all experience is subjective (i.e. "just in your mind"), but that won't help us much.
The real problem you have is how do you validate my "experience" of God. As you said, I might as well be schizophrenic and make the same claims. I have asked a few people (including some of my agnostic/atheist friends) and they seem convinced I am not schizophrenic or delusional. So my best answer is that in all other areas of my life I'm quite normal and reasnable. I wouldn't get away in court by pleading temporary insanity or paranoid delusion, even if I said something silly like "God/Satan made me do it". No-one would believe me.
Actually, my attempts are just as good (or bad) as yours. It "feels"like wisdom, but only in applying it does it make any difference in normal life. I can only say what I have "learned", and like any person, it is up to others to accept or reject my ïnsights". If things were more black and white, we wouldn't need a justice system, would we?
I have mentioned 'learning' about God. I mean that one's "knowledge/understanding" of God changes and grows as it is tested. Not scientifically tested, in the general sense of the word, but tested by life itself. I have suffered, persevered, it has built my character, and as a result I have reason to hope. It is a psychological fact, but an interesting side-product was faith. I put my hope in Christ, and when the experience/results were put into words it read: "God was faithful". I did not reach or "grasp" God, but I have gained faith in Him, and that faith has never disappointed me - I have often disappointed myself, and am often disappointed by others and by circumstances, I often doubt, but nothing ever reaches beyond faith. It would never occur to me even once to take credit for anything when credit so obviously (to me) belongs to God.
Finding God is a constant persuit. It isn't something that is owned. For some it is a persuit in vain, for others it is the most rewarding experience imaginable.
New Life,
I don't know that it is stated like that explicitly (not that I recall), but it certainly is the message that our rigteousness before God is by faith. Our faith as Christians is based on the resurrection of Jesus.
Romans 1 (NLT)
16For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes--Jews first and also Gentiles. 17This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."
Something that should be noted in this discussion of faith is that, while "faith" has both secular and religious meaning, the two perspectives are a little different. From a secular viewpoint (as it is demonstrated in X-Men 2
), faith is something that bridges the gap between knowledge and reality, when empirical knowledge hasn't yet caught up with the present.From a religious (at least Christian) POV, faith goes beyond the present, the belief in God or the unknown - it is closely connected to a living relationship with an unknown God, a rock that keeps on rolling, not a rock that is found and passed by. It is the very rope by which we are pulled out of the water and saved from drowning. Not something we can achieve by ourselves - we can merely hold on to it. Faith is the tool by which we are made "righteous" by a historical, present and future God, and this "righteousness" has no secular function. There's no getting past that in discussion - unless it is to point out the use of secular "faith" in religious circumstances, or vice versa. Keep both perspectives in mind when you read the following, and you'll see what I mean:
Rom. 10: 3
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes [has faith in Him].
Faith is belief, i am pretty sure the two words are synonyms. That is like saying that belief is just something you have faith in.
I can say a lot about it actually. I will refrain though and just talk about you edgar. This is a forum, you should have something, anything to say if you post. Please do not post your lack of an intelligent opinion. Also, you can edit your posts if you make a mistake, do that instead of making multiple posts.
ZERO MASS