Faith vs Reason

[UncleChrist]

(Quote) From GS
Religious faith depends entirely on divine initiative, not on human discovery of the kind occurring in science. Science is based on human observation and reason, while theology is based on divine revelation”

And, whose divine revelation shall we believe? The question has no satisfactory answer, once you abandon hard facts and the only tool to evaluate them (objective reasoning). Faith supports all religions! Once you abandon facts and objective reasoning, the world’s theologies are reduced to a stale collection of irresolvable, competing doctrines, each with its own testimonials, divine revelations and miracles. Why should I reject the native religion of the Apache in favor of your brand of Christianity? What will your reasons be if you have abandoned reason itself? Are you going to argue that Christianity was historical whereas the other religions are not?

If you do invoke historical arguments, you are submitting to a form of reasoning based on facts--not faith. And, if historical arguments can, in principle, uphold your religion, then they can, in principle, break your religion! Proof would be meaningless without the possibility of failure. Therefore, if you choose to argue along historical lines, then we will be happy to refute Christianity by showing that it has no historical validity!

So there we are, each man with his own religion--and no logical reason in the world for believing in any of the others, including yours. Doesn’t that make your god unjust? How could your god send anyone to hell for being unable to do the impossible (convert to your religion without having any reason for doing so)? If faith and personal revelation is all there is, there being no appeal to reason, then we have the best of all arguments for rejecting your god. He is unjust.

If you want to believe in a just god, then you must argue that there are reasons for believing in him. Those reasons must be compelling, for no one could justly be sent to hell for wrongly rejecting weak arguments. Revelations to people long dead (or to present individuals) and/or faith will not do the job. But, once you do argue that there are compelling reasons for believing in your god, then we have the right to ask what those reasons are. We have the right to examine them, to reject them if they are weak. In the end, neither you nor your god can hide behind faith.

------------------------------------------------

thank you GS

 

[Lori_7]

my faith is based upon my own personal experience, not on a religion. if you seek truth, it is there to be found...all around, not just in a book or a preacher's mouth. i never did understand people who could say they believe something just because they were told it was true. especially when the religion itself attests to the validity and importance of an experience. religion is a cult. religion is a country club. religion is a political agenda. it is big business. it's indoctrination. but it's not the source of truth. it is not the answer.

 

[Myles]

my faith is based upon my own personal experience, not on a religion. if you seek truth, it is there to be found...all around, not just in a book or a preacher's mouth. i never did understand people who could say they believe something just because they were told it was true. especially when the religion itself attests to the validity and importance of an experience. religion is a cult. religion is a country club. religion is a political agenda. it is big business. it's indoctrination. but it's not the source of truth. it is not the answer.

That's about as good as it gets; only fools think otherwise

 

[Yorda]

Religious faith depends entirely on divine initiative, not on human discovery of the kind occurring in science. Science is based on human observation and reason, while theology is based on divine revelation”

some parts of religions are based on scientific observations. we can't see spirits today, but the ancient people could. and it's not necessary to believe in the knowledge religions have, science will rediscover those things later.

 

[jayleew]

Good one UncleChrist. I am trying to fight this battle of faith vs reason, to its end. I want both sides to win, so i'm losing my mind.

In the end, perhaps I will have reason to have faith...in fact, I hope that I do. The other conclusion is not as attractive..if I have faith in reason....that is in my mind a bad thing...faith in personal reason is biased and I can't trust it.

It is not just for Christianity to preach that you must believe in God to go to heaven. At this point (with the given lack of evidence), that is abandoning reason. And if God were author of the universe, then I was made like this and I will be punished for God's carelessness of ensuring that I have a reasonable shot at weighing the evidence and choosing to believe. A just god would give a reason to believe for those he made to need reason.

I see two sides to the argument, either there is no god or we all don't have a clue and ought not to condemn others, using the Bible. Either there is no god or religion is broken. Both sides sound plausible to me.

 

[UncleChrist]

some parts of religions are based on scientific observations. we can't see spirits today, but the ancient people could.

Your joking Right ?


Like steam rising from the wounds in a corpse.... sorta crap

 

[jayleew]

I didn't catch that, thats hilarious!

 

[Myles]

some parts of religions are based on scientific observations. we can't see spirits today, but the ancient people could. and it's not necessary to believe in the knowledge religions have, science will rediscover those things later.

What evidence have you got to support your view ?

 

[Tnerb]

Religious faith depends entirely on divine initiative, not on human discovery of the kind occurring in science. Science is based on human observation and reason, while theology is based on divine revelation”

Sure, start a thread about it why don't you; good idea, I reckon, with all of the serious debate being debunked here most of the time.

However my opinion is that Christianity, despite all of it's nonsense in the bible and it's historicial proof or whatnot related with such things, is actually ... well, take this first: Christianity, or to say here the "beliefe in god" (despite it's being subjected to rational approaches), is also somewhat "mystical"; or to put it in another way, it is what the search for "God" actually is. Because, the search for "God" is simply "what God is" to some Christians. So, if it is actually some universal connection, then the bible is wrong maybe to state some of the things that it does, like the burning bush talking. But if it is the universe itself, some form of mystical idea, then we aren't sure what it is you could mean by saying it is rational or whatever you said above.

From these perspectives "God" cannot be denied, or disproven, and the religion of Christianity is nothing but a practical beliefe in God based on what history hasn't really proven.


I plan on posting this aganist my Good will; when I said mystical, I had only meant something that we aren't sure about. The rational in God is not found; and people have every reason to continue believing in "God" as the see him.

/embarassed

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I didn't catch that, thats hilarious!

*************
M*W: I'm happy for you. The last time we discussed this topic, you were sure you were filled with reason. I'm glad to see you have done some research of your own. The answers are there. You will find them within yourself. You will always find them within your own mind.

 

[Cris]

Faith - the conviction that something is true without any evidence.

Why is there any value to such an irrational position?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Faith - the conviction that something is true without any evidence.

Why is there any value to such an irrational position?

Because it might satisfy your psychological and emotional needs... which for most people is far more valuable than truth.

 

[Balerion]

This matter is becoming of great importance here in the US. I don't mean to sound like one of those crazy "the end is nigh" types, but the line between church and state is blurred with every election, with every new generation of politicians. It is because of this that I wish people of all faiths would step back for a second and think...

The only real "science" found in religion is that religion is a natural part of the human archetype. Religion has been around as long as we have--at least in this current evolutionary step--and it isn't going to go away unless we evolve into something else. I mean, there really is something to be said for that, that there is this inherent need to feel that we are not our own masters, that there is something greater than us watching over.

The interesting question is "Why?" Why do we need to feel this way? Is this need built-in evidence of our knowledge of a creator, or is it merely a byproduct of our self-awareness?

Anyway...sorry for the rant...to the original post...you cannot find reason in the organized religions. I'm not saying that there is no god (or God, as it were), but I don't know that there IS one, and I don't think there is any scientific merit in the holy texts we know. There's plenty of good advice (and bad, as well), but no scientific merit to any of it. There's not really intended to be any, though...

 

[Adstar]

(Quote) From GS
Religious faith depends entirely on divine initiative, not on human discovery of the kind occurring in science. Science is based on human observation and reason, while theology is based on divine revelation”

And, whose divine revelation shall we believe? The question has no satisfactory answer, once you abandon hard facts and the only tool to evaluate them (objective reasoning). Faith supports all religions! Once you abandon facts and objective reasoning, the world’s theologies are reduced to a stale collection of irresolvable, competing doctrines, each with its own testimonials, divine revelations and miracles. Why should I reject the native religion of the Apache in favor of your brand of Christianity? What will your reasons be if you have abandoned reason itself? Are you going to argue that Christianity was historical whereas the other religions are not?

If you do invoke historical arguments, you are submitting to a form of reasoning based on facts--not faith. And, if historical arguments can, in principle, uphold your religion, then they can, in principle, break your religion! Proof would be meaningless without the possibility of failure. Therefore, if you choose to argue along historical lines, then we will be happy to refute Christianity by showing that it has no historical validity!

So there we are, each man with his own religion--and no logical reason in the world for believing in any of the others, including yours. Doesn’t that make your god unjust? How could your god send anyone to hell for being unable to do the impossible (convert to your religion without having any reason for doing so)? If faith and personal revelation is all there is, there being no appeal to reason, then we have the best of all arguments for rejecting your god. He is unjust.

If you want to believe in a just god, then you must argue that there are reasons for believing in him. Those reasons must be compelling, for no one could justly be sent to hell for wrongly rejecting weak arguments. Revelations to people long dead (or to present individuals) and/or faith will not do the job. But, once you do argue that there are compelling reasons for believing in your god, then we have the right to ask what those reasons are. We have the right to examine them, to reject them if they are weak. In the end, neither you nor your god can hide behind faith.

------------------------------------------------

thank you GS

Hi GS

The reason why people believe in one religion over the next religion is the message of that religion resonates with them. God sends out His message to attract those who’s will is moved by it.

So those who have a mind to be moved to embrace truth will be moved when they hear and read it. But to those who will be moved to believe a lie they will embrace it when they hear and read it.

Now does God want to spend eternity with people whose minds are set on embracing lies as truth? Who see good in evil?

So think of the message as a clever filtering process that weeds out all those who want to be weeded out, those who hate and mock the love of the truth.

It's brilliant when you think about it GS

So there we are, each man with his own religion--and no logical reason in the world for believing in any of the others, including yours. Doesn’t that make your god unjust?

If you cannot see then do not judge God to be unjust. No judge yourself to be lacking. The fault does not lie with God but with you.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

Hi GS

God sends out His message to attract those who’s will is moved by it.

Man sends out the message on behalf of God

Now does God want to spend eternity with people whose minds are set on embracing lies as truth? Who see good in evil?

God is portrayed as an agressor who should be feared.I can give you plenty of examples where it has (according to the bible)caused genocidal attrocities,and suffering to people but can't think of any examples of it doing anything nice.In fact God only seems to do evil things to mankind in the bible in the name of good?????????????????????
I can see evil in good.

 

[nova900]

Now does God want to spend eternity with people whose minds are set on embracing lies as truth? Who see good in evil?

So think of the message as a clever filtering process that weeds out all those who want to be weeded out, those who hate and mock the love of the truth.

What is the factor or criteria to determine "truth" other than a message just "resonating" with someone? What you see as good others may see as evil and vice versa.
From another faiths' standpoint you could be the one seen as mocking the love of the truth.

 

[Yorda]

What evidence have you got to support your view ?

even today, there are people who can do astral projections and see stuff that science does not see yet. do you really think the ancient people just invented the idea of spirits without ever even seeing them? there's also photographic evidence of ghosts.

Because it might satisfy your psychological and emotional needs... which for most people is far more valuable than truth.

if truth is not valuable and useful, is it really truth?

 

[Myles]

even today, there are people who can do astral projections and see stuff that science does not see yet. do you really think the ancient people just invented the idea of spirits without ever even seeing them? there's also photographic evidence of ghosts.



if truth is not valuable and useful, is it really truth?

Look, I'm not asking for yet more statements; I simply want some evidence thatwhat you say is true because I do not believe it.

So, what evidence supports astral projection ?

What can some people see that the rest of us cannot ? How do you know.

Ancient people created spirts and gods because they had no other way of understanding Nature. I am frightened of lightening. What does it mean ? Look what it did to that tree or another man last week. Why does it happen ? Could it be because my tribe has done something wrong ? Ah, perhaps we should not have killed that animal, sowed that crop at the full moon and so on. Now, to avoid trouble, find a way of propitiating whatever is angry with us. If we kill an animal and give some part of to the gods we may avoid punishment. Maybe if we sowed our crops a few days earlier or later. And so on, and so on.

I have now described what I believe accounts for the birth of religion. Some people have still retained that primitive mindset; they won't walk under ladders, to give one of several examples I could mention.

Now if you look at religion today, what do you find. Catholics seeking forgiveness from a man in a box. Muslims facing Mecca and praying five times a day. Jews praying by reciting special word while bowing non-stop at a wall.
You can think of many more rituals for yourself. Can you see any connection with what I said about primitive people ?

To sum up, an individual can believe anything he/she wants, But if there is an intention to get others to share that belief, evidence must be provided.

 

[Myles]

Adstar, one simple question:
How do you know you are not being misled into believing in a false god ?

 

[SnakeLord]

I mean, there really is something to be said for that, that there is this inherent need to feel that we are not our own masters, that there is something greater than us watching over.

Clearly there isn't an inherent need. I feel no such thing, and i'm quite sure I am not alone in that.