Faith, Objectivity, Belief, Rationality

[Jadon]

"This would mean that the following giants of the history of world thought are irrational: Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galileo, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant, Jefferson, Aquinas, Copernicus, Kepler, Einstein, and numberless others." - LawDog

Dont you get it? The very people you have mentioned did nothing to publicly state or give credit to the Creator for their achievements. Okay, exclude the Greeks who worshipped Demons, the rest all asked the Creator for knowledge, and yet did'nt give the credit where it was due.

This is why we are all caught up in this time wasteful debate.
:m: :m:

 

[wesmorris]

THIS STATEMENT "Religion is not rational or objective and in fact, cannot stand to scrutiny by the intellect." is extreme.

This would mean that the following giants of the history of world thought are irrational: Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galileo, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant, Jefferson, Aquinas, Copernicus, Kepler, Einstein, and numberless others.

You are defeated here.

You defeat yourself with an appeal to authority.

Such is your only means to convey your spite.

 

[superluminal]

Theists battling each other. I love it.

 

[wesmorris]

Wes,

Hehe. What am I doing right now?

Enjoying an entertaining conversation I hope, and reflecting on your thoughts and stimulous I'd imagine. Maybe you're eating strawberries. You're certainly not proving anything. Not to me at least. Perhaps you've proven something to you? If so, good for you.

No, I don't know what you mean by "ethereal", so I can't meaningfully answer your question.

I mean abstract, or "only existing in mind".

Why?
Present me an argument why I should blame this on "my god"!

Who made the universe? In it, the big star swallows the little star. The black hole devours. Might is right.

But isn't it odd, that one spends one's life doing things and not knowing why?

What does that have to do with the subject? Do you do that? Peoples actions are a reflection of what they value. That's why they do what they do. What is the mystery in question specifically?

Relativism can be overcome.

You'll need an argument to support that. I don't buy it at a simple assertion like that. I wholly disagree. It can play more or less of a role, but it cannot be extinguished - not yet at least. The only way I've ever imagined it could happen is if you could actually be me or vice-versa temporarily, if minds could merge or swap in a literal fashion, or if perhaps communication were 100% efficient. Perhaps what I mean is: It could only happen in the event that I could relate to you absolutely.

Give me that -p.a.r.a.d.i.g.m. s.h.i.f.t.

It's coming, one way or another. I hope it's beneficial to the species, but it could lead to our demise.

 

[stefan]

nothing can be proven but those things that we can validly derive from truthful premisses. This is why the vast majority of human knowledge is nothing but contingently true positions that have been inductively supported. to claim something as proven would be an extremely irrational thing to do.

(that is exactly what religious people do) we know the whole world is made up of completely irrational, unintelligent and delusional people, dont we.( good god man wake up)

glaucon, water said

PROVE that YOU are rational, objective and intelligent.

can you prove someone is'nt rational, objective or intelligent.
(their are a lot of people in asylums) as you can then, you must also be able to prove the reverse.

if something can be defined or has been defined

( defined:
1. To state the precise meaning of
2. To describe the nature or basic qualities of;
2.
1. To delineate the outline or form of:
2. To specify distinctly:
3. To give form or meaning to:


reason as been defined as 1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2. Of sound mind; sane.
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See Synonyms at logical.
4. Mathematics. Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.

objective as been defined as 1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
1. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices:
2. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually:
4. Medicine. Indicating a symptom or condition perceived as a sign of disease by someone other than the person affected.
5. Grammar.
1. Of, relating to, or being the case of a noun or pronoun that serves as the object of a verb.
2. Of or relating to a noun or pronoun used in this case.

intelligence as been defined as
1. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
2. The faculty of thought and reason.
3. Superior powers of mind.
2. intelligent,
3. Information; )

then, I think you'll find it's been proven to the general Populous, who are made up of intelligent objective and reasoning people, well 99.999999999999999%, mentioning no names.

 

[glaucon]

(that is exactly what religious people do) we know the whole world is made up of completely irrational, unintelligent and delusional people, dont we.( good god man wake up)

Exactly my point. The vast majority of people on this planet claim to be religious, therefore, the vast majority are irrational. They are the ones who need to wake up.

glaucon, water said
can you prove someone is'nt rational, objective or intelligent.
(their are a lot of people in asylums) as you can then, you must also be able to prove the reverse.

Incorrect. Simply because one can prove x doesn't mean one has proof of not-x. You're forgetting the Law of Excluded Middle.

if something can be defined or has been defined

( defined:
1. To state the precise meaning of
2. To describe the nature or basic qualities of;
2.
1. To delineate the outline or form of:
2. To specify distinctly:
3. To give form or meaning to:


reason as been defined as 1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2. Of sound mind; sane.
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See Synonyms at logical.
4. Mathematics. Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.

objective as been defined as 1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
1. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices:
2. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually:
4. Medicine. Indicating a symptom or condition perceived as a sign of disease by someone other than the person affected.
5. Grammar.
1. Of, relating to, or being the case of a noun or pronoun that serves as the object of a verb.
2. Of or relating to a noun or pronoun used in this case.

intelligence as been defined as
1. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
2. The faculty of thought and reason.
3. Superior powers of mind.
2. intelligent,
3. Information; )

then, I think you'll find it's been proven to the general Populous, who are made up of intelligent objective and reasoning people, well 99.999999999999999%, mentioning no names.

Incorrect. A definition cannot, as a rule, be taken as proof. If this were the case, given that I can define unicorn, I therefore have proof. Definitions are nothing but members of a lexical system which we construct for our purposes. Anything can be 'proven' if it is a member of an artificial system. Strict proof cannot derive from any non-formal system.
The general populous you'll find, if you take 5 minutes to watch some news or read some history, is anything but reasonable. This is why we have legislative bodies called governments.

 

[enton]

I have a simple proposition based on the definitions that follow.

Kindly see, what's the meaning of "simple".

Religion is not rational or objective and in fact, cannot stand to scrutiny by the intellect.

Is this statement in accord with your mind only?

So I would like to discuss the perceived reasons why certain people who are otherwise <strike>supposedly</strike> intelligent and rational, follow a religion.

But we have different perceptual ratiocination.[/QUOTE]