Faith, Objectivity, Belief, Rationality

superluminal

superluminal

I am MalcomR
Valued Senior Member
I have a simple proposition based on the definitions that follow.

Religion is not rational or objective and in fact, cannot stand to scrutiny by the intellect.

So I would like to discuss the perceived reasons why certain people who are otherwise <strike>supposedly</strike> intelligent and rational, follow a religion.

Here are some of my favorite quotes from Martin Luther that epitomize religious thinking for me:

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"It is the most ungodly and dangerous business to abandon the certain and revealed will of God in order to search into the hidden mysteries of God"

"If by any effort of reason I could conceive how God, Who shows so much anger and iniquity, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of faith"

"Faith is permitting ourselves to be seized by the things we do not see."

"Reason is the enemy of faith"

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God"

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Definitions:

Objective:

Undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena; "an objective appraisal"; "objective evidence"

A term used to describe information which is without bias or prejudice and attempts to present all sides of an issue.

Something is objective insofar as it is independent of either a particular mind or minds altogether.

Unbiased (not influenced by personal opinions).

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Rational:

consistent with or based on or using reason; "rational behavior"; "a process of rational inference"; "rational thought"

having its source in or being guided by the intellect (distinguished from experience or emotion);

Using reason or logic in thinking out a problem. (Rationality, rationalism).

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Belief:

Belief is assent to a proposition.

An unproven assertion based on one or more fundamental assumptions. The assertion may be unprovable.

The willing acceptance of the fiction created within dramatic situations and plays, and the student's commitment to it.

An attitude of acceptance or assent toward a proposition without the full intellectual knowledge required guaranteeing its truth.

The subjective assessment of uncertainty. In the Bayesian paradigm, quantified by probability. In the statistical domain.

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Faith:

Aceptance of ideals, beliefs, etc., which are not necessarily demonstrable through experimentation or reason.

n a) belief and trust in and loyalty to God; belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b) firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust

Belief without evidence

The confusion of premises for conclusions.

Strong belief in something without proof or evidence

To trust. Confidence, belief. Confidence, reliance, belief esp. without evidence or proof. Belief based on testimony or authority. What is or should be believed; a system of firmly-held beliefs or principles; a religion.
 
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Water, please see my edit above. It was poorly worded and I apologize. As I have stated before, I know several intelligent and rational theists.

While I cannot prove anything to you, I can assert that I believe I am rational, and at least moderately intelligent.

My contention is that religion itself (and it's associated belief system) is irrational and purely subjective by simple definitional standards. We can argue that contention if you wish, before moving on
 
Reason is just a tool with limits, not the standard by which all experience is judged.
 
With feelings, intuition, irrational speculation, guessing, humor, etc... Experiences do not need to be judged at all, simply experienced. Some cannot be judged no matter how one may desire it, those are mostly religious or psychedelic experiences.
 
superluminal said:
Water, please see my edit above. It was poorly worded and I apologize. As I have stated before, I know several intelligent and rational theists.

While I cannot prove anything to you, I can assert that I believe I am rational, and at least moderately intelligent.

My contention is that religion itself (and it's associated belief system) is irrational and purely subjective by simple definitional standards. We can argue that contention if you wish, before moving on
Click to expand...

Okay.
You cannot prove anything.
And all you can do is assert.
 
water,

Enemies it is then. Fuck you and the ignorant blob of jelly in your head that you call a brain.
 
spidergoat said:
Some cannot be judged no matter how one may desire it, those are mostly religious or psychedelic experiences.
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and all objectivity is experienced subjectively. all that can be done is confere on the subjective expereince of objectivity.
 
water said:
PROVE that YOU are rational, objective and intelligent.
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intelligence is proven via your education, your IQ.
rationality is proven by your peers, or/and a psychiatrist.
objectivity by your five sense and all who view reality.
hence why the man said,
superluminal said:
So I would like to discuss the perceived reasons why certain people who are otherwise supposedly intelligent and rational, follow a religion.
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he was'nt suggesting he was there superior just trying to fathom why they are religious.
water why did you ask such a stupid question.
it could only be to try to highjack the thread.
so try to avoid you stupid petty bickerings and answer the question posed by superluminal.
 
Superluminal,


What, you intended to be something else with a theist, other than being enemies?!
Are you nuts?!
 
No. Just dissapointed.

Me:

Water, please see my edit above. It was poorly worded and I apologize. As I have stated before, I know several intelligent and rational theists.

While I cannot prove anything to you, I can assert that I believe I am rational, and at least moderately intelligent.

My contention is that religion itself (and it's associated belief system) is irrational and purely subjective by simple definitional standards. We can argue that contention if you wish, before moving on
Click to expand...

You truly are ignorant.
 
superluminal said:
No. Just dissapointed.
Click to expand...

Disappointed? Why? You expected something "rational, objective etc." from a theist? That is, per your definition, quite imppossible, that a theist would produce such a thing, ain't it?


You truly are ignorant.
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I love you too.
 
water,

Whatever you are trying to do.. it's not making you very many friends. (Not that it's a bad thing)
 
water:

Disappointed? Why? You expected something "rational, objective etc." from a theist? That is, per your definition, quite imppossible, that a theist would produce such a thing, ain't it?
Click to expand...

Water,

I have tried to open a simple dialog based on the ideas of religion and belief, including acknowledgement of my rational and intelligent theist aquaintances. I corrected what I saw as a unintended condescending phrase and apologized for it.

You however have focused on nothing and demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in rational and objective discussion.

From this, I deduce the following:

You are deeply afraid of having your belief exposed (to yourself) for what it is. A fantasy. You are afraid of admitting that your faith has no basis in objective reality (which it dosen't, by definition) because that is the first step in losing it, if you have the slightest shred if internal mental integrity.

So, would any other theists care to share some well worded and understandable reasons for why they believe? Or why they think faith is rational or objective, given the above definitions to the contrary?
 
Superluminal,


You are not not really interested in all this objectivity babble. You've been over this a thousand times, it is simple and a machine can generate it.
Something is wrong with it, and this is why you bring it up.
 
You're right (she reads minds too... Wow!) So what shall we talk about? Fear? And why it rules a theists life?
 
superluminal said: "Water, please see my edit above. It was poorly worded and I apologize. As I have stated before, I know several intelligent and rational theists.
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M*W: superluminal, please don't apologize to water! She is the one who is not rational nor intelligent!
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superluminal: While I cannot prove anything to you, I can assert that I believe I am rational, and at least moderately intelligent.
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M*W: Not to worry, superlim. You know what you believe. Water is a lost bitch in xiandom. Don't apologize to that skank!
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superliminal: My contention is that religion itself (and it's associated belief system) is irrational and purely subjective by simple definitional standards. We can argue that contention if you wish, before moving on.
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M*W: Superlim, you are wasting your time with water. She's murky at her best. She's also sooooo confused! You've got better plans that don't include this ignorant bitch! Let her go find her god, if she can, but all of us know she is one skanky bitch. Now, I can deal with skanky bitches, but water is devoid of humanism. She deserves whatever she gets! Skank is as skank does, in my book!
 
MW,

I think, in the main, you are correct. But unlike some people (selfrighteous theists?) I have hope for even the most confused.

I've recieved so much direct verbal abuse (by far) from self professed xians and theists that I am certain they follow the god of vengeance in the old testament more than anything else.
 
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