Some people say that religious beliefs can be neither justified nor refuted by reason. However, while sometimes this claim is used as a reason for rejecting beliefs, at other times it is used to conclude that these beliefs are established by faith. To what extent is faith a legitimate basis for knowledge claims, in religion and different Areas of knowledge?
FAITH...in god or born to believe in him
- Thread starter Notti
- Start date
welcome notti, we are all born atheist, there is NEVER a time, where you can justify faith as knowledge, or having a basis in knowledge, faith and knowledge are complete opposites, "never the twain shall meet".
What is faith, really? Being constantly told something by your parents when you're a child. You're not born with it, you're born without religion, as pav suggested.
There is nothing miraculous faith, but the fact that people think it matters at all.
In the bible "faith" is always rational faith...not belief in something that isn't logical.
There is nothing miraculous faith, but the fact that people think it matters at all.
In the bible "faith" is always rational faith...not belief in something that isn't logical.
Well it all boils down to this loaded term "reason", which rationalists like to bandy.
A person who chooses to party instead of study for finals does so for a "reason" which they believe to be justified.
The theist believes in God for a reason he believes to be justified.
The rationalist believes it is reasonable to be logical.. (nevermind the inherent and monstrous circularity)
The (strong) atheist rejects the God concept for a reason he believes to be justified.
All parties bicker among one another by assuming (again, very circularly) that their reasoning is more reasonable than another parties reasoning.
Hence my current crusade to eliminate ambiguation by requiring rigorous definitions for some of the loaded terminology we see on the forum.
Faith, for me, is a social construct. Faith, morals, reason, logic do not exist outside of society. And even if they do exist outside of society (in feral children, for example), they are not recognizable or even associable with what we are familiar with. So that all assumption of "true reasoning" is immediately rendered immensely circular and absurd.
It all boils down to how reasonable you think your reasoning is.
And like lunatics, we point at all other men except ourselves and call them lunatics.
A person who chooses to party instead of study for finals does so for a "reason" which they believe to be justified.
The theist believes in God for a reason he believes to be justified.
The rationalist believes it is reasonable to be logical.. (nevermind the inherent and monstrous circularity)
The (strong) atheist rejects the God concept for a reason he believes to be justified.
All parties bicker among one another by assuming (again, very circularly) that their reasoning is more reasonable than another parties reasoning.
Hence my current crusade to eliminate ambiguation by requiring rigorous definitions for some of the loaded terminology we see on the forum.
Faith, for me, is a social construct. Faith, morals, reason, logic do not exist outside of society. And even if they do exist outside of society (in feral children, for example), they are not recognizable or even associable with what we are familiar with. So that all assumption of "true reasoning" is immediately rendered immensely circular and absurd.
It all boils down to how reasonable you think your reasoning is.
And like lunatics, we point at all other men except ourselves and call them lunatics.
No it dosen't. There is a way to ground this in every day experiential reality. It's called science. We all make scientific judgements every day. Even water.
Then all hope of consensus on what is reasonable or rational flies out the window? Here's one simple definition of reason:
"Reason is the use of logical faculties to arrive at truth"
What is truth? It's what the universe shows us. Objective consensual reality. From the simple:
"How do you like my red hat?"
"It's a very fine red hat."
(The truth is that I have a red hat and we both like it.)
to the complex:
"I have repeatable experimental proof that the Higgs boson exists which shows that the Higgs field is real and is responsible for the masses of all elementary particles."
"Why yes, I see that. And your predictions based on this are accurate"
(The truth is that we have a valid explanation of the origin of mass and we both like it.)
You can philosophize all day about "truth" and "reason" but ultimately, if you can't show any real phenomena based on your claims, you might as well be discussing the effectiveness of garlic in repelling vampires. Religion has zero effect on reality, except in how it alters peoples behavior, just like any other psychosis.
Prayer is uncorrellated (except as a placebo effect, which has been reported) with effect (health, prosperity, the weather...)
Belief in god is uncorrelated with "good" behavior (wait, yes it is - a negative correllation. There are more believers in prison than non-believers by a factor of at least 10:1)
Religion is a purely subjective endeavor.
Yes. Perfect sense. Glad you see it that way also.
In and of itself, it is not nonsense. If it works for you, super. The minute you bring it out of your cranium into the light of reason, it becomes utter nonsense.
Water,
Tell me an objective truth of theism please.
Tell me an objective truth of theism please.
Ok. You claim that's objective. That you can unequivocally demonstrate this fact to the rest of us. With evidence, a mechanism that holds up under experimental scrutiny, and verifiable predictions based on this statement.
Proceed.
Proceed.
SL,
Look up, then look down, there ya go. It's pretty objective. Who else do you think created it all? Monkeys? What?
Anyway, it's trust! Faith is trust! Yoo hoo! You have a certain amount of faith in everything, ranging from none to complete....faith in your mom and dad, in humanity, your government, your employer, your friends, in science, in technology, in the universe, in yourself, and in God. And again, hopefully, and if you're smart, you will base this trust, or lack thereof on some knowledge or lack thereof. What is the big enigma about faith? I don't get it...
Look up, then look down, there ya go. It's pretty objective. Who else do you think created it all? Monkeys? What?
Anyway, it's trust! Faith is trust! Yoo hoo! You have a certain amount of faith in everything, ranging from none to complete....faith in your mom and dad, in humanity, your government, your employer, your friends, in science, in technology, in the universe, in yourself, and in God. And again, hopefully, and if you're smart, you will base this trust, or lack thereof on some knowledge or lack thereof. What is the big enigma about faith? I don't get it...
Lori,
Faith is acceptance without the need for proof. I have that for my family.
And no one created it all Lori. It's just a manifestation of intricate physical law. I take it you are not an evolutionist?
Faith is acceptance without the need for proof. I have that for my family.
And no one created it all Lori. It's just a manifestation of intricate physical law. I take it you are not an evolutionist?
superluminal said:
Sorry...but I was snickering uncontrollably while reading this...
You sound like the leader of a cult, in the way that you are addressing her.
superluminal said:
I don't think I'm an "anythingist". Evolution is part of creation. And creation isn't finished yet. It won't be finished until it's eternal. And you think that this is all "just by chance" and from some chaotic mass of nothingness? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Science has done an outstanding job of providing a butt-load of evidence for intelligent design. What intelligence? Intricate physical law that was designed and put into place by...?
And you base your faith in your family upon your knowledge of them yes? See, that's what I do with God! Eureka! Breakthrough...score!
Join me Lori, and together we can RULE the galaxy as father and, um... female minion?
I know! Do I doubt you or your sincerity? Nope.