this whole thread is devoted to it....When you want to point one out, feel free.
At the moment you have your own arguments from ignorance and personal incredulity.
No actual (valid) argument, though, from you.
Hi Dave,I am guilty of skipping from p.1 to p.4 so this may have been answered, but:
Run me through how you jump directly from determinism to God?
Are you saying that, because there is something controlling us - therefore God?
Is that somehow different than other things that control us? Such as, say gravity or momentum?
The problem with this thread, other than the obvious false premises, invalid reasoning, accusations of being an extremist, appeals to ignorance and emotion, and obvious lack of willing to address most of the criticisms of their position, is that there is actually something probably worth discussing under all the veiled and not-so-veiled insults, behind the pejorative language, and obvious agenda on display.I am guilty of skipping from p.1 to p.4 so this may have been answered, but:
Run me through how you jump directly from determinism to God?
Are you saying that, because there is something controlling us - therefore God?
Is that somehow different than other things that control us? Such as, say gravity or momentum?
Then your wording is incorrect. Please try to specify exactly what you mean.it's not... it is a proxy God a universe that has some of the powers of God attributed to it...
See below.apart from semantic issues what have I written that is false?
So your definition of an "extreme atheist" is simply "an atheist who subscribes to fatalism"? IOW your argument is tautological.I certainly do not subscribe to Fatalism of any kind...
And then:...is in deed a proxy God by default.
So "proxy god" is indeed not what you meant.Of course it isn't a God
Not evident from anything you've posted so far.because fatalism is so heavily contradicted by the consequence of it's own logic.
Post 28: For a person to believe in fatalism and predeterminism he MUST be an atheist.never said that... or did I? Please quote the post...
Oh wait! Would that be the "god" that you have explicitly stated "isn't a god"? And also one that doesn't fit any standard definition of a god? That one?As rightly said an atheist can not believe in God.
But an extreme atheist of the scientific fatalist kind can apparently... by default...
Some interpretations undermine determinism.Even if determinism were true, and it's undermined by quantum theory, that doesn't imply a God.
Why does it imply determinism?Note that if there is a God who is omniscient, that implies determinism; God cannot change his mind, because he already knows the future.
If the universe is deterministic I'd agree.This would all just be a predetermined script that we are acting out, including an individual's atheism. So if there is a God, I have no choice but to be what I am. God makes atheists.
Why would a mechanism need to be offered if we don't need to "allow" control?There is no mechanism offered by fatalists that would allow the universe to control human thoughts and choices to the degree required to deny us our freewill and self determination.
Quantum Quack said:
Good advise!
swap it with proselytize and use that one instead...
Really? I wonder what John Calvin would think of that...For a person to believe in fatalism and predeterminism he MUST be an atheist.
The problem is that when an atheist tries to find "common ground" at a meta-physical level, he is immediately accused of proposing ID. I had to defend myself against such accusation for several pages.At least I think that's a reasonable discussion hidden under there somewhere
"a proxy God...by default", means what to you?
Indeed, the functional purpose of doing so is to contain God within the range of the atheist's doctrinal argument.
Sure... what part of my queston do you not understand.???Care to elaborate?
If you had seriously considered the context the OP put forward then you would have saved yourself quite a few postings.Then your wording is incorrect. Please try to specify exactly what you mean.
See below.
So your definition of an "extreme atheist" is simply "an atheist who subscribes to fatalism"? IOW your argument is tautological.
And then:
So "proxy god" is indeed not what you meant.
Not evident from anything you've posted so far.
Post 28: For a person to believe in fatalism and predeterminism he MUST be an atheist.
Post 32: All fatalists MUST be atheists.
Twice you've posted a false claim.
Oh wait! Would that be the "god" that you have explicitly stated "isn't a god"? And also one that doesn't fit any standard definition of a god? That one?
I took note of that observation and looked at my own arguments as possible arbitrary to suit my perspective.The more particular point being that when an atheist requires a particular iteration of God that fits their argument against, the atheist requires their own God.
yes it was unfortunate mis step on my part.Really? I wonder what John Calvin would think of that...
that includes love and loving, life and living etc I suppose?The problem is that when an atheist tries to find "common ground" at a meta-physical level, he is immediately accused of proposing ID. I had to defend myself against such accusation for several pages.
My advise to theists, drop the Intelligence and Motivated Purposefulness of a "loving" supernatural entity and then we can begin to find common ground on the existence and causality of physical reality.