Extreme Atheism - leads to a Proxy God by default.

[Write4U]

Math? Yuck. I hate math. Sounds like hell to me.

LOL. do you want to see the "image" of the number 4/3 ?
This is really a cool presentation and several different perspectives on mathematical values functions.

Its very entertaining and nothing complicated, but really cool stuff.
And best of all it presents a deeper look at the power of mathematics.

 

[wegs]

LOL. do you want to see the "image" of the number 4/3 ?
This is really a cool presentation and several different perspectives on mathematical values functions.

Its very entertaining and nothing complicated, but really cool stuff.
And best of all it presents a deeper look at the power of mathematics.

I watched a bit of this, and strangely enough, I'm intrigued.
I could like math if it were always explained in this way. He's a great instructor!

 

[Yazata]

I really don't understand why Newton's personal beliefs would be a definitve example and proof for the existence of a god.

Has anyone argued that?

You wrote this:

p.s. I don't consider theists as intelligentsia.

That's your opinion I guess. I think that it's ignorant and a bit foolish though.

To which, QQ replied:

so you think Isaac Newton, the father of modern science, was stupid?

You are claiming the greatest scientist of all time as not being part of the intelligentsia....

My sympathies are with QQ on that issue at least.

I'll add that my thesis advisor in graduate school was a former Catholic priest who had a Doctorate in Sacred Theology and happened to be an authority on a particular late-antique Neoplatonist. He certainly seemed like an intellectual to me.

 

[Yazata]

I thought Einstein identified as a pantheist, so not really an atheist. He might not have believed in a personal god, but he believed in a different type of higher power.

In a way it doesn't matter, since Einstein probably didn't know any more about religion than the next person. There's this weird idea that since he as a brilliant physicist, he must be equally enlightening on any other subject that he chose to comment on.

Even worse, many of Einstein's comments on religion are snipped out of their original context and can be misleading in isolation.

I certainly don't want to pretend to be an authority on Einstein's religious views, but my impression is that Einstein was a bit like MR (except without the ghosts and the UFOs). He thought of the universe as a profound mystery, one that almost certainly exceeded our human capacity to fully understand. I don't know if that translates to pantheism (I think that Einstein did once say that his views resembled Spinoza's) but I think that Einstein did tend to think of the cosmic mystery in vaguely sacred (albeit impersonal) terms. It was beautiful to him, inspiring and transcendent. It gave his own life meaning as he devoted himself to trying to penetrate it a little bit. It's why Einstein would sometimes pop out with comments like how when he was doing theoretical physics, he was trying to read the mind of God.

 

[wegs]

In a way it doesn't matter, since Einstein probably didn't know any more about religion than the next person. There's this weird idea that since he as a brilliant physicist, he must be equally enlightening on any other subject that he chose to comment on.

That's fair, but he wasn't an ''extreme'' atheist, as some would like to think. It matters (to me) only when we mislabel our heroes to fit our worldview.

Even worse, many of Einstein's comments on religion are snipped out of their original context and can be misleading in isolation.

I certainly don't want to pretend to be an authority on Einstein's religious views, but my impression is that Einstein was a bit like MR (except without the ghosts and the UFOs). He thought of the universe as a profound mystery, one that almost certainly exceeded our human capacity to fully understand. I don't know if that translates to pantheism, but I do think that Einstein did tend to think of the cosmic mystery in vaguely sacred (albeit impersonal) terms. It was beautiful to him, inspiring and transcendent. It gave his own life meaning as he devoted himself to trying to penetrate it a little bit. It's why Einstein would sometimes pop out with comments like how when he was doing theoretical physics, he was trying to read the mind of God.

The good news is that he seemed open minded. He questioned. He was curious as to what might lurk past his scientific theories. He was imaginative, and not just when it came to science. Somewhere along the way, being inquisitive got a bad rap, and we dub seekers, theists and spiritual nomads as less intelligent than atheists. If one's sense of wonder leads them to theism, let it be. If it leads a person to concluding that a god doesn't exist, let it be.

I'd be pleasantly gobsmacked if there were ever a thread on topics like these, that went on for many pages, where it didn't derail into a lame competition of egos. There isn't a one. QQ is always quite gracious in his exchanges however, as you are, Yaz.

 

[Seattle]

I think everyone questions the current unknowns. Questioning unknowns doesn't have to lead to a God although wondering if there is one is valid, I suppose. Creative, questioning people don't have to reach for the supernatural however. Not doing so doesn't make one non-creative or non-questioning.

 

[wegs]

I never said it did. Likewise though, choosing to believe in a supernatural ''power,'' doesn't make one unintelligent.

 

[Seattle]

I never said it did. Likewise though, choosing to believe in a supernatural ''power,'' doesn't make one unintelligent.

No, people can compartmentalize (for example). Or, without evidence, you could certainly choose to believe in a supernatural power. Those things don't automatically mean that you aren't intelligent.

Most intelligent people don't have those beliefs but some do.

The more you question those beliefs, the more likely it is that an intelligent person would start to have substantial doubts. If you chose not to question them, for whatever reason, you could easily be an intelligent person who just feels more comfortable with those beliefs and not questioning those beliefs.

People do that with religion all the time. It's in their culture, they want to keep it, they suspend their disbelief where that subject is concerned.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Except Pope Francis holds the Trinity, while Newton was against it.

and if Newtons only concern was to hide his atheism why would he be against the trinity exposing himself as a heretic?

Why bother with the trinity when it actually compromises his position in the Church if he was a closet atheist?

 

[Quantum Quack]

He kept his religious opinions to himself for a reason, that outing his beliefs could see him suffer.

so why was he considered a heretic?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Einstein's position on religion was akin to a politicians... he was what ever you wanted him to be..
Devoted to the discovery of God through science as was Newton apparently...
Devoted to science in atheistic terms
Devoted Hindu for all i know...
Born into a Jewish family.
He kept the mystery of his actual beliefs to himself because it allowed people to focus on the science and not him. IMO

 

[Quantum Quack]

Yes, it's all about God's grace, indeed. Before I continue, what do you mean by ''extreme'' atheism? It implies that there are ''degrees'' to atheism? I'm thinking you mean something else, so thought I'd inquire for clarity.

An extreme atheist for the purposes of this thread is an atheist who considers freewill and self determination to be an illusion that has no reality to it.
That no choice is actually available to humans at all.
The issue of freedom is actually irrelevant as there is no choice to begin with.

There are other forms of extreme atheism but not relevant to this thread.

 

[Quantum Quack]

If you have the ability to play video this is really worth a listen to.
Yeah I know it is a video game clip but it really stood out for me at the time of first listening to it.
the path finder is talking to his chief scientist about her religious beliefs.

 

[Write4U]

Has anyone argued that?

Yes, QQ did.

A giant in science (Newton) was also a theist and that proves theism is true. I took exception to that and posited that theism does not necessarily imply great intellect, to great consternation .......

Hence the list of other great thinkers who are atheist, apparently to no great consternation by anyone....

I'll add that my thesis advisor in graduate school was a former Catholic priest who had a Doctorate in Sacred Theology and happened to be an authority on a particular late-antique Neoplatonist. He certainly seemed like an intellectual to me

Of course, he spoke from authority.
Neoplatonism.

This brand of Platonism, which is often described as 'mystical' or religious in nature, developed outside the mainstream of Academic Platonism. The origins of Neoplatonism can be traced back to the era of Hellenistic syncretism which spawned such movements and schools of thought as Gnosticism and the Hermetic tradition.

https://www.iep.utm.edu/neoplato/#H1

When was the last time you heard a persuasive intellectual argument about the existence and properties of God?
The concept of a living God as scientific theory is intellectually dishonest regardless of knowledge of theist history. It needs only belief not proof, the foundation of scientific and intellectual honesty .

I am sure this is why that long list of atheist scientists exists. No proof of god, no theory.

 

[wegs]

An extreme atheist for the purposes of this thread is an atheist who considers freewill and self determination to be an illusion that has no reality to it.
That no choice is actually available to humans at all.
The issue of freedom is actually irrelevant as there is no choice to begin with.

There are other forms of extreme atheism but not relevant to this thread.

That's interesting, thanks for clarifying. I've honestly never heard of extreme atheism being described like this. Who is the chooser so to speak, if it isn't us? (according to an atheist/of our choices)

 

[wegs]

No, people can compartmentalize (for example). Or, without evidence, you could certainly choose to believe in a supernatural power. Those things don't automatically mean that you aren't intelligent.

Most intelligent people don't have those beliefs but some do.

The more you question those beliefs, the more likely it is that an intelligent person would start to have substantial doubts. If you chose not to question them, for whatever reason, you could easily be an intelligent person who just feels more comfortable with those beliefs and not questioning those beliefs.

People do that with religion all the time. It's in their culture, they want to keep it, they suspend their disbelief where that subject is concerned.

For someone who doesn't like others to judge him, you do a lot of judging. It's okay. I don't take offense to this.

We're all individuals, and no two atheists think exactly alike on how they've arrived at their conclusions. Same holds true for people who believe in a higher power. There is a lot that also needs to be taken into account. Faith brings about a very emotional experience. It can comfort, it can console. Not on its own, but the belief system, if you commit to it. I've identified as an atheist for a time, and finding myself on the other side of the aisle was strange. But, as long as people aren't hurting others with their beliefs, who am I to judge? I think when we judge anyone at all for whatever the reasons (outside of religion, even) we place ourselves above others. We know better than them, they should think like we do. I'm grateful that I live in a country that allows its citizens the freedom of expression and religion. Imagine living in a culture that doesn't.

 

[Seattle]

For someone who doesn't like others to judge him, you do a lot of judging. It's okay. I don't take offense to this.

We're all individuals, and no two atheists think exactly alike on how they've arrived at their conclusions. Same holds true for people who believe in a higher power. There is a lot that also needs to be taken into account. Faith brings about a very emotional experience. It can comfort, it can console. Not on its own, but the belief system, if you commit to it. I've identified as an atheist for a time, and finding myself on the other side of the aisle was strange. But, as long as people aren't hurting others with their beliefs, who am I to judge? I think when we judge anyone at all for whatever the reasons (outside of religion, even) we place ourselves above others. We know better than them, they should think like we do. I'm grateful that I live in a country that allows its citizens the freedom of expression and religion. Imagine living in a culture that doesn't.

I don't have a problem with someone judging me (personally). I have a problem when people are using their votes to negatively impact others rather than focusing on being kind.

Everyone with a brain makes judgments of course. That's just being discerning. If I'm going to take some kind of action that would affect someone else I try to make it a "kind" action.

The same arguments that some would make about immigrants being criminals, taking jobs, etc...in theory those things effect me just as much as them. If everyone has healthcare it might make my taxes go up just like the ones complaining about that.

I'm OK with those things. It's not about me. Living in a society where everyone is treated with kindness ultimately benefits everyone if just though quality of live. Who wants to live in a society with great distinctions between the haves and the have nots.

You can do that without "socialism".

 

[wegs]

I don't have a problem with someone judging me (personally). I have a problem when people are using their votes to negatively impact others rather than focusing on being kind.

Everyone with a brain makes judgments of course. That's just being discerning. If I'm going to take some kind of action that would affect someone else I try to make it a "kind" action.

The same arguments that some would make about immigrants being criminals, taking jobs, etc...in theory those things effect me just as much as them. If everyone has healthcare it might make my taxes go up just like the ones complaining about that.

I'm OK with those things. It's not about me. Living in a society where everyone is treated with kindness ultimately benefits everyone if just though quality of live. Who wants to live in a society with great distinctions between the haves and the have nots.

You can do that without "socialism".

Wow, you've changed the topic suddenly, which is fine. I happen to agree with you. The US can do better.

I'm not a liberal or republican, I'm a moderate. Having said that, what do you make of people's reactions to Trump wanting to send illegal immigrants, some of them with criminal records, to sanctuary cities? Would that be considered an act of kindness? I haven't been following this very closely, but at first glance, it seems like he isn't recommending this out of kindness.

 

[Write4U]

Quantum Quack said:
An extreme atheist for the purposes of this thread is an atheist who considers freewill and self determination to be an illusion that has no reality to it.
That no choice is actually available to humans at all.
The issue of freedom is actually irrelevant as there is no choice to begin with.

This patently untrue.
The title of the thread reads Extreme Atheism - leads to a Proxy God by default.

This gives no hint of any connection to Determinism or Free Will. Those are the goalposts placed randomly on the playing field and subject to constant change.

Start a new thread titled; Atheism constitutes Fatalism or some such posit. Not the accusation that Extreme Atheism inevitably leads to the establishment of a Proxy God by default.

You cannot even define God, let alone establish the concept of a Proxy God in relation to any form of Atheism.
The entire exercise is truly an exercise in futility based on an unprovable existence of a God to begin with.
It is duplicitous from its inception.

 

[wegs]

lol Omg, I thought this was the ''kindness'' thread, thus my response above.