Evolutionary Implies of the Human Diet

My understanding is that bacteria grow in cooked grains not eaten right away (at least rice, anyway), and those bacteria supposedly provide vitamin B-12.

What is the name of that bacteria? Who did that investigation? Which are its conclussions?

Humans are innate agricultors and stockbreeders [economical for plough, transport; anti-economic for eat], but the carnivore habit probably raised as a consequence of continuous wars, poverty, and the necessity to dwell in icy lands.
Before the invention of the home fridge, it was impossible to eat meat 2 times per week, or more, if family didnt have a ranch [middle class].

I guess carnivore habit is anti-natural.

Another aspect i question on carnivorism is the innate human sensitivity, aesthetics, sense of harmony. I can't imagine a female version of a Velazquez, of a John Collier asphyxiating, chopping animals.
 
Ok. Im trying to understand if the ecosystem was the main factor the caused hindu vegetarianism, i mean lack of native animal species, stockbreeding difficulties [uncontrolable diseases, as it usually happens with some vegetal crops]. Or the main factor was religion.

As this is a Biology Forum, you would like to hear on some essential aminoacids, valine,...etc, which only exist in animal sources.
Folate, Casein.. the problem is there is no a scientific conclussion to stop controversy.

Do you know any serious investigation?
 
Ok. Im trying to understand if the ecosystem was the main factor the caused hindu vegetarianism, i mean lack of native animal species, stockbreeding difficulties [uncontrolable diseases, as it usually happens with some vegetal crops]. Or the main factor was religion.

As this is a Biology Forum, you would like to hear on some essential aminoacids, valine,...etc, which only exist in animal sources.
Folate, Casein.. the problem is there is no a scientific conclussion to stop controversy.

Do you know any serious investigation?

I tend to think that meat is hard to come by for poor people. Almost anything that animals could eat could also be eaten by people. And domestic animals like cows are too valuable for their labor to eat, thus the religious taboos.
 
Ok. Im trying to understand if the ecosystem was the main factor the caused hindu vegetarianism, i mean lack of native animal species, stockbreeding difficulties [uncontrolable diseases, as it usually happens with some vegetal crops]. Or the main factor was religion.
In settled, agricultural, dense populations there is also politics and economics.

None of these factors are mutually exclusive - as Marvin Harris argued persuasively many years ago, religion seems to embody the originating society's response to economic (subsumes ecological) reality: cows become sacred, pigs abominated, people "vegetarian", rituals and customs established, in accordance with underlying patterns of physical circumstance and economic reality.

the carnivore habit probably raised as a consequence of continuous wars, poverty, and the necessity to dwell in icy lands.

Before the invention of the home fridge, it was impossible to eat meat 2 times per week, or more, if family didnt have a ranch [middle class].
In the evolutionary time scale - going back at least several tens of thousands of years, that is - many if not most humans almost certainly ate meat more or less daily for at least a good part of any given year. Aside from the year long availability of shallow water invertebrates that form so easily and universally a part of the human diet (don't even need cooking), the stone age reds of North America had workable preservation techniques for large land animals (jerky, pemmican, etc) and salmon (dried), the stone age whites of Scandinavia had ways of preserving fish (lye, drying, etc), and so forth.
 
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In settled, agricultural, dense populations there is also politics and economics.

None of these factors are mutually exclusive - as Marvin Harris argued persuasively many years ago, religion seems to embody the originating society's response to economic (subsumes ecological) reality: cows become sacred, pigs abominated, people "vegetarian", rituals and customs established, in accordance with underlying patterns of physical circumstance and economic reality. ...
I agree. Religion is often used to help enforce rules that have benefits to the society. The food one cow eats can feed 8 or more people so in society with many dying of hunger, the rich not eating beef is a good idea, enforceable only via religion. India still has too many cows (and monkeys) but they don´t produce them for food other than milk and foolishly use their droppings for fuel instead of fertilizer. Simple solar stoves are helping to increase crop yields now.
 
What is the name of that bacteria? Who did that investigation? Which are its conclussions?


Wikipedia said:
...Flavobacterium, Lactobacillus, Micromonospora, Mycobacterium...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_b_12

It seems that Lactobacillus ferments food and produces B-12. But there apparently are many forms of B-12, some at various times better than others.

Humans are innate agricultors and stockbreeders [economical for plough, transport; anti-economic for eat], but the carnivore habit probably raised as a consequence of continuous wars, poverty, and the necessity to dwell in icy lands.
Before the invention of the home fridge, it was impossible to eat meat 2 times per week, or more, if family didnt have a ranch [middle class].

I think history indicates the opposite view, unless one goes back many millions of years to our more primitive, largely vegetarian primate ancestors. After those early vegetarian-like days, humans evolved to eat meat often, and we are still adapted for doing that. Those were the classic hunter/gatherer days, which lasted for hundreds of thousands of years, and adoption of agriculture was only about 10k years ago. Before agriculture, humans hunted wild meat often, as needed, and their population was small enough that the natural ecology could support that lifestyle.


Another aspect i question on carnivorism is the innate human sensitivity, aesthetics, sense of harmony. I can't imagine a female version of a Velazquez, of a John Collier asphyxiating, chopping animals.

I agree with your sentiment that we should try to phase out carnivorism, especially that which involves eating mammals, for the sake of humaneness. Then, soon, I'd like to remove fish and poultry from our diets after we establish substitutes with better nutrition than even those. The substitutes will also need to be easily available to everyone. (With the large release of radioactive waste from the Fukushima reactor after the gigantic earthquake in Japan, I'm not sure how safe fish from the north Pacific ocean is. Further contamination of the ocean seems to be ongoing.)
 
I think history indicates the opposite view, unless one goes back many millions of years to our more primitive, largely vegetarian primate ancestors. After those early vegetarian-like days, humans evolved to eat meat often, and we are still adapted for doing that. Those were the classic hunter/gatherer days, which lasted for hundreds of thousands of years, and adoption of agriculture was only about 10k years ago. Before agriculture, humans hunted wild meat often, as needed, and their population was small enough that the natural ecology could support that lifestyle.
This started when one of our ancestral species several million years ago discovered how to make a flint blade by banging rocks together. They used those blades to scrape off the bits of meat leftover by predators on the bones of their kill.

This resulted in a major increase in the protein in their diet. The extra protein allowed their brains to grow larger. (Brains require a tremendous amount of protein for maintenance, which is why dogs, which have been bred to be scavengers, have smaller brains than wolves, which are hunters.) So eventually a species arose with a larger brain, and these people invented even more powerful hunting tools such as spears, and techniques such as cul-de-sacs. So their diet was even richer in protein, and their descendant species had an even larger brain. Eventually our species, Homo sapiens, arose, and we figured out how to domesticate animals so we had a huge supply of protein living right in our backyard.

It could be argued that humans are obligate carnivores, since we could not survive on a plant-based diet before the technology of cooking was invented, which makes the protein in grains and legumes digestible. We are certainly the apex predator on this planet, dining on the flesh of both bears and sharks.

It was not until the spread of cities, around 5000BCE, that meat began to be hard to obtain. The cities were growing so large that it was not easy for the surrounding pasture land to produce enough meat for the inhabitants and deliver it to them with no refrigeration or motorized vehicles. At this point humans began to rely more on grains for their protein, and nutritional deficiencies began to reduce our life expectancy. Grains have protein, but they don't have all the vitamins and minerals we need. The fruits and vegetables that have these nutrients are not as easy to grow in mass quantities as grains are, and they also spoil much faster.

I agree with your sentiment that we should try to phase out carnivorism, especially that which involves eating mammals, for the sake of humaneness. Then, soon, I'd like to remove fish and poultry from our diets after we establish substitutes with better nutrition than even those.
There's nothing wrong with being humane and ceasing to kill animals for food, even though some of us are of two minds on the subject and can't imagine living without meat. We'll certainly be dead long before this happens so we don't have to worry about the conflict.

However, dairy products (milk and eggs) have almost exactly the same nutritional content as meat. Moreover, dairy farming is an enormously more efficient use of pasture land that meat farming: one acre of land used to graze dairy cows produces ten times as much food as the same acre used for beef cattle.

We should have no qualms about putting cows to work producing milk and chickens to work laying eggs, so long as they are treated humanely and not warehoused in today's "factory farms." Everyone has to work for a living and there's no reason why that can't apply to non-humans, as long as we treat them as kindly as human workers--or maybe even a little better. ;)
 
Humans are innate agricultors and stockbreeders [economical for plough, transport; anti-economic for eat], but the carnivore habit probably raised as a consequence of continuous wars, poverty, and the necessity to dwell in icy lands.
Before the invention of the home fridge, it was impossible to eat meat 2 times per week, or more, if family didnt have a ranch [middle class].


I think history indicates the opposite view, unless one goes back many millions of years to our more primitive, largely vegetarian primate ancestors. After those early vegetarian-like days, humans evolved to eat meat often, and we are still adapted for doing that. Those were the classic hunter/gatherer days, which lasted for hundreds of thousands of years, and adoption of agriculture was only about 10k years ago. Before agriculture, humans hunted wild meat often, as needed, and their population was small enough that the natural ecology could support that lifestyle.
Sure, but think in mediterranean diet [fathers of occidental culture], how unhealthy other european diets are when comparing to.

Since crops are more vulnerable to wars than domestic animals; in addition, meat can be stored in fridges, or conserved dried. During a war, the only people's choice to eat is 'concentrated' food: dried meat, carbohydrates, syrups, etc. This could have been become an habit, post wars.
As when people shipped during long periods of time, their only choice were concentrated food.

This is just my hipothesis. Can you prove i'm wrong?
 
This resulted in a major increase in the protein in their diet. The extra protein allowed their brains to grow larger. (Brains require a tremendous amount of protein for maintenance, which is why dogs, which have been bred to be scavengers, have smaller brains than wolves, which are hunters.) So eventually a species arose with a larger brain, and these people invented even more powerful hunting tools such as spears, and techniques such as cul-de-sacs. So their diet was even richer in protein, and their descendant species had an even larger brain. Eventually our species, Homo sapiens, arose, and we figured out how to domesticate animals so we had a huge supply of protein living right in our backyard.
Very interesting. Can you quote any investigation about the link between meat consumption and brain development?
It implies vegetarian hindus have lesser brain development? Are less intelligent? Or perhaps their brains obtained the necesary nutrients from a peculiar combination of vegetables?

It could be argued that humans are obligate carnivores, since we could not survive on a plant-based diet before the technology of cooking was invented, which makes the protein in grains and legumes digestible. We are certainly the apex predator on this planet, dining on the flesh of both bears and sharks.
 
An error occurred, that part belongs to Fraggle Rocker:

It could be argued that humans are obligate carnivores, since we could not survive on a plant-based diet before the technology of cooking was invented, which makes the protein in grains and legumes digestible. We are certainly the apex predator on this planet, dining on the flesh of both bears and sharks.[/QUOTE]
 
It could be argued that humans are obligate carnivores, since we could not survive on a plant-based diet before the technology of cooking was invented, which makes the protein in grains and legumes digestible. We are certainly the apex predator on this planet, dining on the flesh of both bears and sharks.
I was a vegetarian semi-raw foodist during 4 years (exceptions: yogurt, cooked corn, whole bread, pasta). Felt great.
 
Since crops are more vulnerable to wars than domestic animals;
That isn't true. Among the first and most severe hardships of war is the loss of livestock (and, historically, game animals) from slaughter, theft, starvation, and neglect - the US killing of draft animals in Cambodia and Thailand and Vietnam was probably a war crime (in the tradition of the tactical killing of the bison on the Great Plains during the Indian Wars), for the same reason the Heifer Project and other extraordinary efforts after WWII established for a time the virtue and high moral ground of US hegemony (the loss of that hurts in so many ways, but digression - - - ).

I was a vegetarian semi-raw foodist during 4 years (exceptions: yogurt, cooked corn, whole bread, pasta). Felt great
A modern industrial society option of no evolutionary significance yet.
 
... A modern industrial society option of no evolutionary significance yet.
Perhaps, but perhaps the most extreme ever, if making earth sterile for all life. See: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...-fuel-source&p=1473520&viewfull=1#post1473520 and more at: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...e-Comparison&p=3002029&viewfull=1#post3002029

A more immediate concern is the growth of mono-culture food crops - a wind blown rust or virus could kill 50 million in a growing season.

BTW, a decade or so after WWII I was planning a trip to Hungry. The tour guide book I read, reported that all the animals in Budapest zoo had been eaten during WWII. On the other hand, the famous book 1001 Days - the siege of Leningrad (Sort of the title, if not exact) tells of the custodian of a seed depository who, sitting on a sack of eatable seeds, starved to death. (Russia´s need for them after the war, was more important to him than living. He knew they would help Russia recover from Trofim Lysenko´s politically motivated stupidity.* )

* It was communistic doctrine that the peasants could be molded into the "New Soviet Man" - genetics were not important, only their environment (education) was. Applied to crops, this doctrine starved millions of Russians.
 
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Humans are innate agricultors and stockbreeders [economical for plough, transport; anti-economic for eat], but the carnivore habit probably raised as a consequence of continuous wars, poverty, and the necessity to dwell in icy lands.
Before the invention of the home fridge, it was impossible to eat meat 2 times per week, or more, if family didnt have a ranch [middle class].



Sure, but think in mediterranean diet [fathers of occidental culture], how unhealthy other european diets are when comparing to.

Since crops are more vulnerable to wars than domestic animals; in addition, meat can be stored in fridges, or conserved dried. During a war, the only people's choice to eat is 'concentrated' food: dried meat, carbohydrates, syrups, etc. This could have been become an habit, post wars.
As when people shipped during long periods of time, their only choice were concentrated food.

This is just my hipothesis. Can you prove i'm wrong?

What you say could be true. Food availability due to various factors like war might encourage people to develop new habits and pass them down to their children.
 
What you say could be true.
I would like to find any reliable source about these new habits of war times. I only can speculate during WWI families dried meat (the few i know is meat pieces are hung on wires, exposed to the sunlight, then salt is added. Salt dehydrates and is bactericide), and as much vegetable food as possible: raisins, currants, apricots, potatoe flakes, etc.
I don't see any better way to ensure their feeding, specially if they are forced to travel by boat for long periods.

ancient methods:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drying_(food)

Food availability due to various factors like war might encourage people to develop new habits and pass them down to their children
Perhaps the hard physical exercise of ancient farmers compensated the new habit.

This Bible quotation is suggesting Prophet Daniel was a vegetarian?:

Daniel and his friends did not want to eat the king's food nor drink his wine because they knew it would not be good for them. When they told this to the servant, he was afraid. He thought the king would kill him if Daniel and his friends did not look as healthy as the other young men their age.

Daniel pleaded with the servant to allow him and his three friends to eat only grains and vegetables and drink water for 10 days. At the end of the 10 days, the servant could decide whether these four boys looked less healthy than the children who ate the king's food. The servant agreed to try this. (See Daniel 1:1214.)

The biblical text: http://www.lds.org/hf/art/display/0,16842,4218-1-1-33,00.html
 
Anybody could try to explain why i felt much better when was a lacto-vegetarian? Maybe i have an hindu ancestor?, i can't rule out it.
 
One possibility is that you ate less, especially empty calories.
False.
I felt extremely well. Slept like a baby, experienced an indescribable sensation of peace and increased vitalogy. I always was an skeptic regard esoteric beliefs as trance state, yoga, etc, but when i experienced this I was so surprised that I became an open minded, thought that maybe yoga was a lost science.
 
In the other hand, i experienced physical effects: my dandruff disappeared completely, my hair was so perfect, it almost did not use shampoo. I became so clean as a cat.
My body expelled an hipnotic parfum, i didnt need to buy artificial parfums; it remembered me the novel The parfum- P. Suskind.

Knows anybody's pictures ''before and after'' regard physical effects of a 100% clean diet?

I just can't imagine dead raw meat can be part of a clean diet. Neither can see how to cook 'tasty' meat without the oxidant method of oil heating.
The oil decomposes with heat, the gee don't, is it true?
 
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