Jan Ardena:
You are an obfuscation expert James.
I see this mash-up of misrepresentation, as a sign of frustration.
Where have I misrepresented your position? This is a regular complaint of yours, but all you do is make the complaint, rather than correcting my supposed errors by stating your true position and showing where I was wrong.
You need to get closure on the issue of ''there is no God'', but you can't.
We're almost 400 posts into this thread and the theists have presented virtually nothing in the way of actual evidence for their beliefs. I've seen lots of excuses as to why they (you) can't do it. Apparently, I won't recognise your evidence as such. Apparently, my epistemology is wrong. Apparently I need to share your belief
before I look at any evidence. And so it goes. In the meantime, you're failing to present any evidence at all, even on your own terms.
Is it all smoke and mirrors, this claim that you know God is real? Is your claim based on anything?
You try to convince yourself there is no God, by twisting what theists say.
Read the opening post again. My invitation to theists was simple. Present your evidence on your terms. Don't worry about trying to convince me, for now. Don't be frightened of big old me. I assure you I won't bite you if I personally find your evidence unconvincing. What's the harm in presenting it, if you actually have any?
I cannot convince you that scriptures are evidence of God, because for you there is no God.
Why do you suddenly feel the need to convince me? You've told me many times that you don't give a damn whether you convince me of anything. But now you're all coy about gaining my approval?
The problem is you are an atheist by choice.
You are a theist by choice. Is that a problem for you?
Based on what I said I believed, what would you regard as evidence?
For the purposes of this thread, it doesn't matter. Present what
you regard as evidence. Be my guest.
You can grammar it how you like James. Truth is truth. If I said I was a man, I would be telling the truth. If I said I was the fastest sprinter in the world, I would not be telling the truth. Do you want to know the truth, or aren't you bothered. That is the question. I'm not interested in your long-winded answers. Just a simple yes or no.
You say it is true that God is real. I'm asking you to present evidence that tends to support that conclusion. I am interested in whether you have any such evidence.
If you manage to present some evidence, and that establishes that the statement "God is real" is true, then I will be very interested, I assure you.
If I wasn't interested in the truth, I wouldn't have started the thread. Understand?
You mean evidence aside from the ability to perceive something as evidence?
That would be a good start, if it's the best you have to offer.
That would mean presupposing I am separate to God, and my faculties are independent of God.
That is your delusion, not mine.
I asked for evidence, remember, not presupposition.
Are you telling me that one has to presuppose that he is not separate from God in order to believe that there is evidence for God?
You and Musika seem to put a lot of preconditions on presenting your evidence. Why don't you both just show us what you've got? Why do you need to insist that I be in a correct frame of mind before you present any evidence? Are you concerned that I will laugh at your evidence otherwise, or something like that?
Don't you think you're both being a bit fragile about this? It's almost as if you doubt the strength of whatever it is that you think you have.
Firstly, I would have to consider what ''willing'' is. Whether or not it was a part of the reality, that it would need to separate itself from in a bid to independently find the reality that is real. The problem is that in doing so, I would lose access to reality, and consider my delusion a reality. In that way, I will have deemed myself, God. Similar to what atheists do.
I take it that's a "no", then. Correct?
You’re the one who has trouble. You don’t even realise that you’re predisposed toward truth, even in your world where you try to make it possible there could be a God, but there would have to be independent evidence.
What do you think God is, why there could be independent evidence?
It's interesting that you use the word "independent" here. Independent of what?
Are you telling me that evidence of God is dependent on something? Dependent on what?
Perhaps you're saying that the evidence for God is dependent on the viewer's belief in God, such that only a believer will recognise the evidence as evidence. Is that it?
Or perhaps you're back to the vague claim that
everything is evidence of God, because without God there would be nothing. Thus, the evidence for God is dependent on begging the question. We have to start by assuming the conclusion the evidence is supposed to support. Is that it?
I think I have said all I need to say thus far.
I suggest you stop with obfuscating, and simply respond to what I say, so we can progress.
I believe I am responding to you in this post. See the quotes of what you wrote, followed by my responses?
You are in your position, and I am in mine.
To make things short, but informative, I suggest you bring forth a definition of God that is acceptable for both of us. Then we can move forward.
If you think you need to define God, do so by all means. But this just looks like a delaying tactic to me.
Are you going to present any evidence, or not? I must say, I'm not optimistic at this point. We're almost 400 posts into the thread and there's very little to show for it.
If atheists know anything at all, then they know there is God.
How could they know that?
Sure they can deny it, and become intellectually fulfilled with just so stories of how we come to know things.
This thread isn't really about atheist denial. Stop trying to shift the focus.
But they are simply kidding themselves. There is a reason why some atheist are not partial to truth.
Take it to the Psychology of theists and atheists thread, maybe.
But you don’t want to discuss the God that theists accept and believe in.
In this thread, I want to discuss the evidence for the God that theists accept and believe in. Do you have any?
