Evidence for the supernatural.

A

answers

Registered Senior Member
Please post all the scientific data you have to support the supernatural here.

Please note that studies need to have relevant controls and they also need to have been submitted for peer review in a reputable journal.
 
That's idiotic. According to your criteria, then it wouldn't be supernatural anymore then would it? It would just be plane natural then, wouldn't then chap, eh?
 
So you're saying that the supernatural has no measurable impact on the natural world?

An example of a study that could be presented, would be to demonstrate that spiritual healing resulted in better health in a group undergoing the healing when compared to a group that did not undergo the healing and significantly better health than another group of people who were administered a similar strength placebo to the spiritual healing group.

I don't think that's an idiotic request?
 
For me, seeing is believing, and somethings aren't going to be performed twice for inspection and re-verification for those who are just stubbornly skeptical, b/c their own small minded world view can't undergo the earth shattering readjustment it would require to assimilate the new information they have seen with their own eyes. They would rather have the practitioner redo his spiritual endeavor over and over again, to be poked and prodded with all sorts of scientific experiments to verify the reality of what the scientific observer is in fact observing, b/c he just can't wrap his small little skeptical mind around the obvious reality of his own existence and experience to what is happening. Mostly, this is b/c it would entail the entire reordering of his whole world view, and well, that's just not doable, is it? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW6pVFOpE6Q
 
answers said:
So you're saying that the supernatural has no measurable impact on the natural world?

An example of a study that could be presented, would be to demonstrate that spiritual healing resulted in better health in a group undergoing the healing when compared to a group that did not undergo the healing and significantly better health than another group of people who were administered a similar strength placebo to the spiritual healing group.

I don't think that's an idiotic request?
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It's impossible to control for that study though. You can't have a good control group for these types of studies. Dr. John Haglin did some awesome studies on large group meditations in Washington D.C. and how it drastically reduced crime in the city. It was compared to other precints in the city where no meditation was done, and the results were astounding. Likewise, Dr. Dean Radin has done research with intentional food preparation, on things why food that is prepared by hand, like home cooked meals and the like, see his "intentional chocolate" studies, are more healthy. http://oneminuteshift.com/videos/dean_radin/intentional_chocolate

But the old science paradigm will always, "debunk" this sort of thinking saying there aren't enough controls, why? Because it requires an entirely new way of thinking. . . . a shift of consciousness. The New Science is completely at odds with the entrenched university interests. So excuses will always need to be made to keep a grounding to a soulless, unconscious, completely mechanical universe. There will ALWAYS be other factors, and until we have massive super computers to calculate ever variable, we can't know.

But of course, the other side will say uncertainty theory say YOU CAN'T know, and hence, the end of the argument with the skeptics. So throw your hands up in the air and forget this whole line of discussion with them, okay? It's just a headache and a nuisance. You must just trust that
 
The Esotericist said:
But the old science paradigm will always, "debunk" this sort of thinking saying there aren't enough controls, why? Because it requires an entirely new way of thinking. . . . a shift of consciousness. The New Science is completely at odds with the entrenched university interests. So excuses will always need to be made to keep a grounding to a soulless, unconscious, completely mechanical universe. There will ALWAYS be other factors, and until we have massive super computers to calculate ever variable, we can't know.
Click to expand...

He used to do that on the Art Bell Show and that was like ten years ago. Its good entertainment but your not supposed to actually believe it.
 
why? Because it requires an entirely new way of thinking. . . . a shift of consciousness
Click to expand...

Yes, an abandonment of science and reason.
 
The Esotericist said:
That's idiotic. According to your criteria, then it wouldn't be supernatural anymore then would it? It would just be plane natural then, wouldn't then chap, eh?
Click to expand...

No. What it would mean is that there would then be a science of the supernatural. It would still not be natural if it doesn't follow existing natural laws.
 
Every single experiment has potential confounds or problems with sensitivity or generality, or internal validity, or external validity, etc... etc...

I don't think you can blame the peer reviewers for pointing these things out. They are problems with the experiments, not the reviewers.

I'll check out those experiments on meditation etc...
 
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ABSTRACT FOR THE BLESSED CHOCOLATE STUDY: (THE FULL PAPER CAN BE FOUND HERE: http://www.intentionalchocolate.com/images/ExploreArticle.pdf ) PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS STUDY HAS BEEN USED TO SELL BLESSED CHOCOLATE THE SHOP IS HERE http://www.intentionalchocolate.com/ . SO THE RESEARCHERS WERE MOTIVATED TO REPORT RESULTS WHICH WOULD SELL MORE CHOCOLATES...

Objective: A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled experiment
investigated whether chocolate exposed to “good intentions”
would enhance mood more than unexposed chocolate.
Design: Individuals were assigned to one of four groups and
asked to record their mood each day for a week by using the
Profile of Mood States. For days three, four and five, each person
consumed a half ounce of dark chocolate twice a day at prescribed
times. Three groups blindly received chocolate that had
been intentionally treated by three different techniques. The
intention in each case was that people who ate the chocolate
would experience an enhanced sense of energy, vigor, and wellbeing.
The fourth group blindly received untreated chocolate as
a placebo control. The hypothesis was that mood reported during
the three days of eating chocolate would improve more in
the intentional groups than in the control group.
Subjects: Stratified random sampling was used to distribute 62
participants among the four groups, matched for age, gender,
and amount of chocolate consumed on average per week. Most
participants lived in the same geographic region to reduce mood
variations due to changes in weather, and the experiment was
conducted during one week to reduce effects of current events
on mood fluctuations.
Results: On the third day of eating chocolate, mood had improved
significantly more in the intention conditions than in
the control condition (P  .04). Analysis of a planned subset of
individuals who habitually consumed less than the grand mean
of 3.2 ounces of chocolate per week showed a stronger improvement
in mood (P  .0001). Primary contributors to the mood
changes were the factors of declining fatigue (P  .01) and increasing
vigor (P  .002). All three intentional techniques contributed
to the observed results.
Conclusion: The mood-elevating properties of chocolate can be
enhanced with intention.

All three intentional techniques contributed
to the observed results. THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE! ONLY 1 INTENTIONAL TECHNIQUE WAS SIGNIFICANT AND EVEN THAT RESULT IS DUBIOUS

THESE ARE THE 3 INTENTIONAL TECHNIQUES THEY USED TO BLESS/MEDITATE ON THE CHOCOLATE: "Intentional Treatment Methods
The three intentional imprints were produced by (1) a pair of
experienced meditators, (2) an electronic device imprinted by six
experienced meditators, and (3) a ritual performed by a Mongolian
shaman."

RESULTS


Figure 4. Average mood disturbance scores for the control condition
and three intentional conditions, with 95% confidence intervals. An
analysis of covariance on the three days in which chocolate was
consumed (days three to five) showed a marginally significant difference
(P _ .09) in accordance with the hypothesis.


P= 0.9 IS NOT A SIGNIFICANT RESULT!

Analysis 2: Mood _ Day Interaction
This analysis indicated a general improvement in mood over the
course of the test week, as expected (F(6, 354) _ 2.75; P _ .01;
Figure 2).
ALL CONDITIONS IMPROVED IN MOOD, EVEN THE CONTROL CONDITION. THIS POINTS TO AN EXPECTANCY CONFOUND. MOST LIKELY DUE TO THE PARTICIPANTS BEING TOLD THE AIM OF THE STUDY WAS TO GIVE CHOCOLATE THAT WOULD IMPROVE MOOD.


Figure 3. Average mood disturbance scores for the control condition
and three intention conditions combined, with 95% confidence intervals.
In accordance with the hypothesis, mood began to improve in the
intention versus control condition on the second day of eating chocolate
and significantly improved on the third day (day five; P _ .04;
one-tailed). Mood results are shown for each day of the week to
provide context for the three days of interest.
THE FULL SCALES FOR THE MOOD DISTURBANCE IS NOT SHOWN HERE, IS THIS A FLUCTUATION OF 5 POINTS OUT OF A POSSIBLE 100 POINTS, OR IS IT A FLUCTUATION OF 5 POINTS OUT OF A POSSIBLE 20 POINTS?





Figure 4. Average mood disturbance scores for the control condition
and three intentional conditions, with 95% confidence intervals. An
analysis of covariance on the three days in which chocolate was
consumed (days three to five) showed a marginally significant difference
(P _ .09) in accordance with the hypothesis.
HERE YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE WAS ALREADY A DOWNWARD TREND FOR ALL GROUPS BY DAY 3. FURTHERMORE MEDITATORS AND SHAMAN YEILDED SIMILAR RESULTS AS THE CONTROL. THE DEVICE CONDITION WAS RATED AS MUCH LOWER THAN ALL OF THE OTHER CONDITIONS. THE RESEARCHERS GROUPED THE DEVICE CONDITION WITH THE OTHER INTENTION CONDITIONS IN ORDER TO BRING DOWN THE AVERAGE FOR THAT GROUP.


I LOVE IT HERE’S A QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE OF MY EXACT POINT:

“Analysis of mood _ intention split by condition for the three
days of interest resulted in a nonsignificant difference in mood
disturbance (F(6, 114) _ 1.88; P _ .09; Figure 4). Only the device
treatment versus control comparison resulted in a significant
difference on day four (t(29 df )__2.12; P_.002) and day
five (t(29 df )__2.66; P _ .007).”

MEDITATORS WERE NO DIFFERENT FROM CONTROL, SHAMAN WERE NO DIFFERENT FROM CONTROL. ONLY THE DEVICE WAS DIFFERENT FROM THE CONTROL AND EVEN THIS WASN’T DIFFERENT FOR 1 OF THE 3 DAYS. AND THIS IS ONLY A 3 DAY TEST WITH A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE (14 PEOPLE IN THE DEVICE CONDITION). WITH SUCH A SMALL NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS THE “SIGNIFICANT” VARIATION COULD EASILY BE DUE TO CHANCE. REPLICATION IS NEEDED WITH MORE PARTICIPANTS AND A GREATER NUMBER OF DAYS IN ORDER TO SUBSTANTIATE THE CLAIMS IN THIS ARTICLE. THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN 2 OUT OF 3 INTENTION GROUPS, AND ONLY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES FOR 2 OUT OF 3 DAYS OF EATING CHOCOLATE FOR THAT 1 INTENTION GROUP SHOWS THAT THESE RESULTS ARE NOT CONVINCING.
FURTHERMORE THERE WAS A SHARP INCREASE IN MOOD DISTURBANCE OF THE CONTROL GROUP ON DAY 5 COMPARED TO DAY 3 OF 11 POINTS! THIS SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN MOOD DISTURBANCE UPON EATING CHOCOLATE WAS NOT PREDICTED BY THE RESEARCHERS. FURTHERMORE THE DEVICE CONDITION WHICH WAS THE ONLY SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT CONDITION IMPROVED IN MOOD BY 10 POINTS WHICH IS LESS THAN THE CONTROL CONDITION WORSENED. WHAT EXPLANATION IS THERE FOR THE CONTROL GROUPS WORSE MOOD WHEN COMPARED TO THE DAYS BEFORE EATING CHOCOLATE? IF THERE WAS A VARIATION OF 11 POINTS IN THE CONTROL GROUP FOR NO APPARENT REASON, THIS SHOWS THAT THERE COULD BE VARIANCE IN THE DEVICE GROUP OF 10 POINTS FOR NO APPARENT REASON.

SUMMARY: 2 INTENTION CONDITIONS WERE NOT SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT TO THE CONTROL CONDITION. THE DEVICE CONDITION WAS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT, HOWEVER DUE TO THE SMALL NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS AND THE FACT THAT THE DEVICE CONDITION WASN'T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FOR ALL THE DAYS THAT CHOCOLATE WAS EATEN, AND THE FACT THAT THE CONTROL CONDITION CHANGED MORE THAN THE DEVICE CONDITION FOR NO APPARENT REASON, GOES TO SHOW THAT THE DIFFERENCE IN THE DEVICE CONDITION IS LIKELY DUE TO CHANCE.
 
Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, D.C.: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June--July 1993

ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATION IS GIVEN IN THE STUDY: Also, on July 13, 1993, the Washington Post reported that a
coalition of reUgious and community leaders began a 72-hour mora
torium on crime. However, a follow-up article in the Post dated July
16 reported that the "crime moratorium lacks patrols", and noted
a very small turnout for the event. Of seven hundred city residents
who had signed up for four-hour shifts to patrol high-crime areas,
about 100 actually attended; and only a dozen of approximately
30 volunteers stationed at a site in District 5 at 8 p.m. were still
present at 10:30 p.m. In any event, it is unUkely that a 72-hour
moratorium could account for the declining crime trend throughout
the two-month Demonstration Project.

By the eighth week of the Demonstration Project, when the group was
largest, crime had decreased by an estimated 23.3%.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY THEY DIDN'T EMPHASIZE THE POINT THAT CRIME ROSE 27% IN THE 1ST 2 WEEKS OF THE DEMONSTRATION... WHY DID THEY EMPHASIZE THE FACT THAT CRIME REDUCED 23.3% OVER THE NEXT 2 WEEKS FROM THE BASELINE AND NOT THE FACT THAT IT HAD INCREASED ALSO AT THE TIME OF THE DEMONSTRATION...MAYBE BECAUSE THAT DEMONSTRATES THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE OF. AND WHY IS IT THAT 2 MONTHS AFTER THE DEMONSTRATION PERIOD CRIME DROPPED EVEN LOWER THAN THE LOWEST POINT DURING THE DEMONSTRATION PERIOD? A DROP THAT WAS A DIVERSION FROM THEIR MODEL'S PREDICTED CRIME RATES THAT WAS EQUAL IN MAGNITUDE TO THE DIVERSION SEEN IN THE DEMONSTRATION PERIOD?

SUMMARY: CRIME DEVIATED (DECREASED) FROM THE PREDICTED CRIME RATES TO A SIMILAR MAGNITUDE WHEN THE DEMONSTRATION PERIOD WAS NOT HAPPENING. CRIME ROSE 27% DURING THE TIME OF THE DEMONSTRATION PERIOD. BOTH OF THESE FINDINGS DEMONSTRATE THAT THE DEMONSTRATION PERIOD DID NOT ACTUALLY EFFECT CRIME.
 
I included links for the first study because the study was available for free.

The 2nd study is not available for free. It requires paid membership to the journal. So posting links is not possible. So it was only possible to include the title of the journal article.
 
...Existence of a very small micro-mini-black-hole in brain is predicted as a space-time structural interface between consciousness and brain, whose vaporization explains mass-loss reported in weighing experiments, conducting during the moments of death...
Click to expand...
Geometry of Time, Axiom of Choice and Neuro-Biological Quantum Zeno Effect
Authors: Moninder Singh Modgil (courtesy:arxiv)


“Hypothesis Concerning Soul Substance, Together with Experimental Evidence of the Existence of Such Substance”
Authors: Dr. Duncan MacDougall (courtesy:scribd)
 
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keith1 said:
...Existence of a very small micro-mini-black-hole in brain is predicted as a space-time structural interface between consciousness and brain, whose vaporization explains mass-loss reported in weighing experiments, conducting during the moments of death...
Click to expand...

Geometry of Time, Axiom of Choice and Neuro-Biological Quantum Zeno Effect
Authors: Moninder Singh Modgil (courtesy:arxiv)
Click to expand...

and it would explain the sudden appearance of a post,that should be somewhere else....

answers..
i know with photo's you can post at a storage site..isn't there something like that for text? (anyone else know?)
 
You can't post publicly, copyrighted articles that have not been released by a journal. You would get into some serious trouble for doing that.
 
No I didn't post a 7 page article...

Please show where I posted that 7 page article on this forum.
 
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