I thought this article published in South Florida shows an example of how poor science can encourage gullible people to believe what they want to hear. Following comments and critique are by a less gullible real scientist.
HOT NEWS!
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-28brain.
COPIED FROM: SOUTH FLORIDA SUN-SENTINEL - JUNE 28, 2001
Sun-Sentinel.com
Mind continues after brain dies, scientist says
By Sarah Tippit
Reuters
June 28, 2001
LOS ANGELES -- A British scientist studying heart attack patients
says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may
continue after the brain has stopped functioning and a patient is
clinically dead.
The research, presented to scientists last week at the California
Institute of Technology, resurrects the debate over whether there
is life after death and whether there is such a thing as the
human soul.
``The studies are very significant in that we have a group of
people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid
thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time
when their brains are shown not to function,'' Sam Parnia, one of
two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in England who have
been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs), told
Reuters in an interview.
``We need to do much larger-scale studies, but the possibility is
certainly there'' to suggest that consciousness, or the soul,
keeps thinking and reasoning even if a person's heart has
stopped, he is not breathing and his brain activity is nil,
Parnia said.
He said he and colleagues conducted an initial year-long study,
the results of which appeared in the February issue of the
journal Resuscitation. The study was so promising the doctors
formed a foundation to fund further research and continue
collecting data.
During the initial study, Parnia said, 63 heart attack patients
who were deemed clinically dead but were later revived were
interviewed within a week of their experiences.
Of those, 56 said they had no recollection of the time they were
unconscious and seven reported having memories. Of those, four
were labeled NDEs in that they reported lucid memories of
thinking, reasoning, moving about and communicating with others
after doctors determined their brains were not functioning.
Among other things, the patients reported remembering feelings of
peace, joy and harmony. For some, time sped up, senses heightened
and they lost awareness of their bodies.
The patients also reported seeing a bright light, entering
another realm and communicating with dead relatives. One, who
called himself a lapsed Catholic and Pagan, reported a close
encounter with a mystical being.
Near-death experiences have been reported for centuries but in
Parnia's study none of the patients were found to have received
low oxygen levels, which some skeptics believe may contribute to
the phenomenon.
When the brain is deprived of oxygen people become totally
confused, thrash around and usually have no memories at all,
Parnia said.
``Here you have a severe insult to the brain but perfect
memory.''
Skeptics have also suggested that patients' memories occurred in
the moments they were leaving or returning to consciousness. But
Parnia said when a brain is traumatized by a seizure or car wreck
a patient generally does not remember moments just before or
after losing consciousness.
Rather, there is usually a memory lapse of hours or days.
''Talk to them. They'll tell you something like: 'I just remember
seeing the car and the next thing I knew I was in the
hospital,''' he said.
``With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain is so severe it
stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect profound
memory loss before and after the incident,'' he added.
Since the initial experiment, Parnia and his colleagues have
found more than 3,500 people with lucid memories that apparently
occurred at times they were thought to be clinically dead. Many
of the patients, he said, were reluctant to share their
experiences fearing they would be thought crazy.
``When you damage the brain or lose some of the aspects of mind
or personality, that doesn't necessarily mean the mind is being
produced by the brain. All it shows is that the apparatus is
damaged,'' Parnia said, adding that further research might reveal
the existence of a soul.
``When these people are having experiences they say, 'I had this
intense pain in my chest and suddenly I was drifting in the
corner of my room and I was so happy, so comfortable. I looked
down and realized I was seeing my body and doctors all around me
trying to save me and I didn't want to go back.
``The point is they are describing seeing this thing in the room,
which is their body. Nobody ever says, 'I had this pain and the
next thing I knew my soul left me.' ''
Copyright © 2001, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randal Koene <randalk@marina.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Fw: [BEM-F] Mind Continues After Death?
Hi all,
Well, well, another case of clear-cut evidence brought about through the
scientific method. Sarcasm aside, where in this entire article is there
actually any *evidence*??? I found none. If someone could point out some
evidence, that would be interesting. I can give you similar articles that
go on at length about interviews in which 6 out of 60 persons reported
weird memories such as alien abduction or out-of-body experiences and
flying. So, are the aliens here too?
I thought we were just getting to the point where it is becoming more and
more clear just how much human memory is *not* a video replay of events,
but rather a compilation of *plausible* reconstructions - that are also
very susceptible to suggestion. Remember all that child witness stuff?
And the vast scales of satanic rituals on children humbug?
No, you really need a lot more than these interviews.
Anyhow, a few comments on the stuff below:
> LOS ANGELES -- A British scientist studying heart attack patients
> says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may
I wish he would have mentioned the *evidence*.
> ``The studies are very significant in that we have a group of
> people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid
> thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time
> when their brains are shown not to function,'' Sam Parnia, one of
Wrong! Should be: "Here we have a group of people who had no apparent
brain function and now *claim* to have had thoughts at the time."
> ``We need to do much larger-scale studies, but the possibility is
> certainly there'' to suggest that consciousness, or the soul,
The possibility to suggest something is always there. Suggestions fact do
not make.
> When the brain is deprived of oxygen people become totally
> confused, thrash around and usually have no memories at all,
> Parnia said.
I see no contradiction there. If you are confused, it is quite possible
that you may recall memories of events that did not happen, i.e. memories
that are not actually memories of the time involved.
> ``Here you have a severe insult to the brain but perfect
> memory.''
Funny, I would have drawn the opposite conclusion. The 56 who reported
nothing appear to have normal memory function. Those who believe they
remember the time when they had no brain activity are probably suffering
from trauma induced mental confusion.
> Skeptics have also suggested that patients' memories occurred in
> the moments they were leaving or returning to consciousness. But
> Parnia said when a brain is traumatized by a seizure or car wreck
> a patient generally does not remember moments just before or
> after losing consciousness.
>
> Rather, there is usually a memory lapse of hours or days.
And this general case does appear to hold true for the majority of the
patients who were interviewed.
> ``The point is they are describing seeing this thing in the room,
> which is their body. Nobody ever says, 'I had this pain and the
> next thing I knew my soul left me.' ''
Meaningless, since our experiences are always subjective.
Cheers,
Randal
_______________________________________________________________________
RANDAL A. KOENE
Neural Modeling Lab, Department of Psychology - McGill University
randalk@marina.psych.mcgill.ca, (514)-398-4319
minduploading.org, www.psych.mcgill.ca/perpg/stds/rk/
HOT NEWS!
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-28brain.
COPIED FROM: SOUTH FLORIDA SUN-SENTINEL - JUNE 28, 2001
Sun-Sentinel.com
Mind continues after brain dies, scientist says
By Sarah Tippit
Reuters
June 28, 2001
LOS ANGELES -- A British scientist studying heart attack patients
says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may
continue after the brain has stopped functioning and a patient is
clinically dead.
The research, presented to scientists last week at the California
Institute of Technology, resurrects the debate over whether there
is life after death and whether there is such a thing as the
human soul.
``The studies are very significant in that we have a group of
people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid
thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time
when their brains are shown not to function,'' Sam Parnia, one of
two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in England who have
been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs), told
Reuters in an interview.
``We need to do much larger-scale studies, but the possibility is
certainly there'' to suggest that consciousness, or the soul,
keeps thinking and reasoning even if a person's heart has
stopped, he is not breathing and his brain activity is nil,
Parnia said.
He said he and colleagues conducted an initial year-long study,
the results of which appeared in the February issue of the
journal Resuscitation. The study was so promising the doctors
formed a foundation to fund further research and continue
collecting data.
During the initial study, Parnia said, 63 heart attack patients
who were deemed clinically dead but were later revived were
interviewed within a week of their experiences.
Of those, 56 said they had no recollection of the time they were
unconscious and seven reported having memories. Of those, four
were labeled NDEs in that they reported lucid memories of
thinking, reasoning, moving about and communicating with others
after doctors determined their brains were not functioning.
Among other things, the patients reported remembering feelings of
peace, joy and harmony. For some, time sped up, senses heightened
and they lost awareness of their bodies.
The patients also reported seeing a bright light, entering
another realm and communicating with dead relatives. One, who
called himself a lapsed Catholic and Pagan, reported a close
encounter with a mystical being.
Near-death experiences have been reported for centuries but in
Parnia's study none of the patients were found to have received
low oxygen levels, which some skeptics believe may contribute to
the phenomenon.
When the brain is deprived of oxygen people become totally
confused, thrash around and usually have no memories at all,
Parnia said.
``Here you have a severe insult to the brain but perfect
memory.''
Skeptics have also suggested that patients' memories occurred in
the moments they were leaving or returning to consciousness. But
Parnia said when a brain is traumatized by a seizure or car wreck
a patient generally does not remember moments just before or
after losing consciousness.
Rather, there is usually a memory lapse of hours or days.
''Talk to them. They'll tell you something like: 'I just remember
seeing the car and the next thing I knew I was in the
hospital,''' he said.
``With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain is so severe it
stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect profound
memory loss before and after the incident,'' he added.
Since the initial experiment, Parnia and his colleagues have
found more than 3,500 people with lucid memories that apparently
occurred at times they were thought to be clinically dead. Many
of the patients, he said, were reluctant to share their
experiences fearing they would be thought crazy.
``When you damage the brain or lose some of the aspects of mind
or personality, that doesn't necessarily mean the mind is being
produced by the brain. All it shows is that the apparatus is
damaged,'' Parnia said, adding that further research might reveal
the existence of a soul.
``When these people are having experiences they say, 'I had this
intense pain in my chest and suddenly I was drifting in the
corner of my room and I was so happy, so comfortable. I looked
down and realized I was seeing my body and doctors all around me
trying to save me and I didn't want to go back.
``The point is they are describing seeing this thing in the room,
which is their body. Nobody ever says, 'I had this pain and the
next thing I knew my soul left me.' ''
Copyright © 2001, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randal Koene <randalk@marina.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Fw: [BEM-F] Mind Continues After Death?
Hi all,
Well, well, another case of clear-cut evidence brought about through the
scientific method. Sarcasm aside, where in this entire article is there
actually any *evidence*??? I found none. If someone could point out some
evidence, that would be interesting. I can give you similar articles that
go on at length about interviews in which 6 out of 60 persons reported
weird memories such as alien abduction or out-of-body experiences and
flying. So, are the aliens here too?
I thought we were just getting to the point where it is becoming more and
more clear just how much human memory is *not* a video replay of events,
but rather a compilation of *plausible* reconstructions - that are also
very susceptible to suggestion. Remember all that child witness stuff?
And the vast scales of satanic rituals on children humbug?
No, you really need a lot more than these interviews.
Anyhow, a few comments on the stuff below:
> LOS ANGELES -- A British scientist studying heart attack patients
> says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may
I wish he would have mentioned the *evidence*.
> ``The studies are very significant in that we have a group of
> people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid
> thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time
> when their brains are shown not to function,'' Sam Parnia, one of
Wrong! Should be: "Here we have a group of people who had no apparent
brain function and now *claim* to have had thoughts at the time."
> ``We need to do much larger-scale studies, but the possibility is
> certainly there'' to suggest that consciousness, or the soul,
The possibility to suggest something is always there. Suggestions fact do
not make.
> When the brain is deprived of oxygen people become totally
> confused, thrash around and usually have no memories at all,
> Parnia said.
I see no contradiction there. If you are confused, it is quite possible
that you may recall memories of events that did not happen, i.e. memories
that are not actually memories of the time involved.
> ``Here you have a severe insult to the brain but perfect
> memory.''
Funny, I would have drawn the opposite conclusion. The 56 who reported
nothing appear to have normal memory function. Those who believe they
remember the time when they had no brain activity are probably suffering
from trauma induced mental confusion.
> Skeptics have also suggested that patients' memories occurred in
> the moments they were leaving or returning to consciousness. But
> Parnia said when a brain is traumatized by a seizure or car wreck
> a patient generally does not remember moments just before or
> after losing consciousness.
>
> Rather, there is usually a memory lapse of hours or days.
And this general case does appear to hold true for the majority of the
patients who were interviewed.
> ``The point is they are describing seeing this thing in the room,
> which is their body. Nobody ever says, 'I had this pain and the
> next thing I knew my soul left me.' ''
Meaningless, since our experiences are always subjective.
Cheers,
Randal
_______________________________________________________________________
RANDAL A. KOENE
Neural Modeling Lab, Department of Psychology - McGill University
randalk@marina.psych.mcgill.ca, (514)-398-4319
minduploading.org, www.psych.mcgill.ca/perpg/stds/rk/
