Evening the Score? All-white basketball league not racist, says commissioner

[Tiassa]

This and that

MZ has it right. You have misread my post.

Yes, and my sarcasm in that reflects my opinion of your post. Such superficiality suggests I shouldn't put much effort into answering you.

• • •​

Um... Tiassa: If this is racist then why is it not racist for blacks and other racial groups to have their own organizations that strictly exclude members of other races?

How about one of the people who wants to post or praise that list of organizatons do so responsibly?

To reiterate:

I would appreciate it if you would actually make an argument concerning that list of organizations. Perhaps you might research each one and try to explain something about the context.

For instance, once upon a time, it was pointed out that Americans were spending more money as a society on certain cancers that men contracted than women. Shortly after is when I recall starting to see the pink ribbons and all that. After a number of years, as public awareness rose, the situation started to change. The breast cancer situation got better, to the point that I have, before, heard similar charges leveled against the Susan G. Komen Foundation, that they're sexist because they benefit only women. Well, men can get breast cancer, too, but that's beside the point. Like pro athletes. I think it's very good of the players and teams to support the Komen Foundation, but why shouldn't they also have a day to support prostate cancer research? Is it a woman's fault, or the Komen Foundation's fault, if prostate cancer research support organizations aren't marketing themselves as well? I mean, this one is a fairly easy consideration compared to the history of some of those organizations you've listed. What is the historical context surrounding their establishment? What needs did they allege to serve?

Thre was a time in the U.S. when even black doctors were giving black patients lesser care because the baseline for medical school was so white. As a result, most doctors didn't know to look for different disease proclivities between whites, blacks, Asians, &c. Many advocacy, information, support, and even political groups came about in days and under circumstances when our baseline was so white that minorities were overlooked.

And some of these organizations have served their purpose and are now anachronistic. But, just to start at the top of your list, I can actually still, at least in the United States, see a need for mental health associations tailored to various ethnic communities.​

If people wish to fall back on that list as some sort of argument, it needs to be presented in good enough faith to at least include some explanation of how those organizations make the point.

If those folks can't or won't do that, they should not be surprised if people perceive their low-effort argument as racist.

Why does everyone like to forget that whites were slaves in America too???

I responded to you two weeks ago about indentured servitude after you posted racist propaganda in support of an argument. You could have responded then, but you chose not to. So to answer your question a second time:

It's not a matter of forgetting. It's just that, unlike the holocaust denier and racist you cite, I don't see the processes as the same. It is not that indentured servitude was a just policy, but at least someone bothered to wave a pretense of law and justice at it. Furthermore, you're discussing the British, who weren't in charge here in 1863.​

In addition, I'll even note that not everyone forgets about indentured servitude; see #1988084/50, from almost a year and a half ago, for an example.[/indent]

You're a bit late, at least, with this latest inaccurate slogan of yours.

Perhaps you should have looked into it before you made the lament. I'm not going to search 128 posts containing the word "indentured", dating back to 2005 for you. I will, however, mention Doreen reminding of the issue only last month. So ... yeah. I'm sure it sounded cute at the time, but it's a completely bogus argument you've reposted only two weeks after ignoring the response.

 

[CutsieMarie89]

An all white team seems like a pointless excerise. However...

'Tis true that if a whole bunch of blacks got together and said that they wanted to create some fringe league for African-Americans in say, tennis, or golf, or hockey, or some other sport that is predominated by white participants... few whites would bat an eye. Yet this will surely draw the ire of tons of blacks. I wonder why that is.

But it didn't, so there is no need to wonder why black people will be upset. I even looked up the opinion of (self proclaimed) African Americans few seem to really be bothered by it. White people are raising more of a stink. When I first saw it the first thing I thought was "whatever".

 

[Asguard]

I agree men's health doesn't get enough attention. And I agree there is some sexism involved. And I also think a good amount of that sexism is men's.



That has to do with how the arguments are phrased.



I don't contest that I did, although if you happen to remember the thread, post it and, well ... do you ever wonder why?

Just as an example that you might remember, there was a time when one of our foremost periodic misogynists complained that the Violence Against Women Act in the United States was an example of misandry. Bells and I suggested that he was blaming VAWA for something that is men's fault. Because the other part of his proposition—an important and valid—was that domestic violence against men isn't taken as seriously. This is true. This is a problem. But it's not VAWA's fault. If men put the same kind of effort as women have into encouraging one another to report domestic violence, and organizing to campaign and lobby for better domestic violence laws, emergency shelter provisions, and everything else abused women and their advocates have fought for over the years in the political and legal arenas, I sincerely doubt the situation would be the same. But, no. He felt discriminated against as a man because there exist facilities he is not allowed to enter—with the effect of scaring the living fuck out of people—because of his sex. Had he not been so insistent about denouncing VAWA and the hard-won produce of years of feminist political efforts on behalf of female domestic violence victims as being about discriminating against men, it probaby wouldn't have sounded misogynistic, and we probably could have spent more words and time on how to remedy the challenges facing men suffering domestic violence.

So if you happen to remember the thread, I'll be happy to go through it and tell you what problem I perceived.



In the United States, at least, that is the result of men's attitudes.



And how are the arguments constructed? Have you any examples? Generally speaking, people perceive some sort of "antifeminism" or misogyny when the issue isn't about, say, increasing life expectancy, but competing against women.

Historically, these sorts of issues emerged from periods when women were deprived in society. Times are a'changin'. So are conditions. But the focus should be on the actual problem, not how unfair it is that women, who campaigned hard and fought admirable political fights, succeeded. Men need to step up. They need to stop worrying about sounding like pussies or faggots when they report domestic violence, or campaign and lobby for emergency shelters, or call for research into death rates. But they also need to focus on the actual issue they want addressed, and not make it about women and how their efforts to inform, protect, and advance themselves victimize the poor, helpless men.



It's more politics and budget, unless Australia is unique among nations in that respect. But of what sexism affects the situation, how much of it is men's sexism?

I grew up in a culture that included the waning influence of the rugged, manly-man, masculine expectation. We aren't supposed to cry. We aren't supposed to show pain. We are supposed to take risks. We've been the soldiers and workers in dangerous environments for a long time, which contributes to men's mortality statistics. It's no surprise that we're dying earlier. Between modern food quality, pollution exposure, cycles of cocaine, and high-stress careers, it's no wonder men are dropping dead at problematic rates.

But if I were to go to Hollywood, or New York, or Chicago or Dallas or downtown Seattle, and tell a masculinist group that part of our obligation in addressing these problems is to simply calm the fuck down, well, that's bad for business.

Seriously, tell some high-strung executive on his ninth cup of coffee and thirteenth cigarette before lunch to calm down, he's going to tell you he can't because it's bad for business. And he's part of that death rate you're talking about. When he and his kind drop dead early, there's enough of it going on that it's going to impact the statistics.

So men need to do what women did. They need to inform, encourage, and look out for one another. If they're in secure marriages, their wives will gladly help however they can. If they're in normal marriages, how many of those wives should probably just keep their mouths shut because he'll think she's nagging?

Will they do it, though?

Some will. After the infamous encounter in which my former girlfriend got ludicrously drunk (as did I), informed me she was pregnant, and then attacked me on the street, one of my best friends asked why I didn't call the police. Well, um ... if she's carrying my child, she's not spending a night in jail. I mean, look at her. Sure, it's annoying and completely full of shit, but she can't actually hurt me. And he told her the next time he saw her that if he ever heard of that happening again, he would call the police.

I appreciated the gesture greatly. Because it didn't involve, "Why didn't you just smack the shit out of her, you fucking pussy?"

Maybe it's a completely different set of circumstances down under, but here on Turtle Island, that's how it goes. Men have a lot of work to do in order to address concerns like those you, and even people like MH and ABS express.

And it should even be easier. Because it's not 1955, and they're not women; there's nobody to menace them back into the kitchen and then knock them up for the fourth time. What's stopping them? More often than not, they're stopping themselves.

Mate, there is not one thing i disagree with in that. I would just like to point out some history for you though. Men certainly need to do more for there own health but thats only part of the story. Though when we think of the old feminist movement we think of mass demestrations of women on the street burning there bras for the right to vote that ignores the fact there was a massive push by MEN as well to give women the vote. The same goes for breast cancer funding and resurch. Look at Glen McGrath and the McGrath foundation. For those of you who arnt Australian's and Cricket fans Glen McGrath was one of our best fast bowlers, he also lost his wife very young to breast cancer and just before she died (from memory) the 2 of them started a foundation to raise money for the Breast cancer foundation mainly using his stardom from cricket to get publicity. So why bring that up? Because its not just men who should be fighting for funding for men's health, women have a very large role to play as well at all levels, pushing there own partners to call an ambulance when they start to feel that pain in there chest, seeing a doctor when they are feeling depressed (and alot do i admit), and not pushing the "marcho" stero type when chosing partners and talking about chosing partners right through to speaking out both to other women and men about mens health (depression and suicide have a double stigma in men, not just the marcho image but the stigma which comes out of mental illness and suicide themselves) and finally to the political and advocasy level. There are a fair number of men who have come out and stuck up there hands to say that they suffer depression for instance but very few women who have lost partners who have actually come out and talked about it, and pushed both goverments and the general public to deal with the situation. The fact that it IS begining to be talked about is great but it has to come from BOTH genders, not just the one.