Even if Bible is God's Word, it is still useless for guidance
- Thread starter Joeman
- Start date
Jenyar said:
And no more unfair than condemning the rape survivor to Hell for pre-/extra-marital sex.
Look, fair is fair according to the ultimate authority, but God has consciously chosen to apply separate standards: one standard of propriety for the leader, and another standard of propriety for the sheep. Thus the shepherd can screw the flock any way He wants and only the sheep will be punished.
If God made the Jews not practice slavery, perhaps the Jews would have killed their prisoners. Perhaps God wanted to test them as to their treatment of slaves. Perhaps God wanted to draw an analogy. Who knows? As for your other point, no biblical evidence exists for saying God disallowed homosexuality, as in the attraction to the same sex. The only viewpoint in both the OT and the NT is that God disallowed homosexual relations--whether God is "against" it we don't really know.
okinrus said:
The point of allowing slavery is not to spare the lives of prisoners. Joe Hovah doesn't give a shit about prisoners. Just read Joshua. Joe Hovah explicitly said you can BUY slaves from nations around. Slaves are not usually prisoners.
Joeman said:
And such, as we see, is the problem of trying to employ logic in an arena so nonsensical as the triune God of Christianity.
God's pretty clear about homosexuality; He hates it. Nonetheless, God forgives on the one hand (redemption through Christ and all), and to the other we have more and more evidence suggesting that at least some who partake in the love God hates are predisposed to do so by God's design.
This is why if you spend your life hating yourself and claiming to love Jesus, you get to believe you're going to Heaven.
I don't know of anybody who does that, least of all God. Each is responsible for his own sin, not for the sin he was victim to. Having been a witness to the destruction sin leaves in its wake is one way to realize that salvation doesn't only offer hope for the sinner, but also for his victims.tiassa said:
It's a separation of authority. Is it unfair that only the president gets to be president? The way God regulates behaviour is why we have a standard of justice by which we think we can judge Him.
We think we're so objective, but consider for a moment that slavery was as economically acceptible as capitalism is for us. In 2000 years, people may very well wonder why God did not ban his people from engaging in commerce, if it turns out to be even worse than slavery, like the apocalyptic "mark of the beast" without which no-one could buy or sell. I think we'd be better off looking to ourselves for double standards.
Quote J:
“There are many reasons why you might come to such a conclusion, but just because you think so doesn't mean He is different.”
* How about common sense? Or does the Bible require uncommon sense? Sorry Jenyar, but tell me in all honesty. Do you condone this?
“And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)
and,
"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)
* Are you saying this did not actually occur, that it is allegorical? Now this character is the same being as the one you describe as:
Quote J:
“But Jesus represents God's love for mankind, His feelings towards all of humanity.”
And:
“His work progressively. In fact, that's why the gospel writers were so careful to indicate how God can be seen in Jesus as He was seen in Israel - through its laws, prophecies, rituals and offices.”
* Did this being chill with age or what. Lets take historical context out of the equation, and look at the incidents soberly. Can you condone the above behaviour? C`mon pull the other one, its begging!
Quote J:
“The covenants were how God made his promises.”
* Why did god select only the Jews to form a covenant. Did he not create all mankind? Why is a “loving” god selective?
Quote J:
“For those who live outside His will, who pervert God's justice and threaten his children, Jesus was as condemning in the New Testament as God ever was in the Old.”
* What exactly is this “will” that you speak of?
Allcare.
“There are many reasons why you might come to such a conclusion, but just because you think so doesn't mean He is different.”
* How about common sense? Or does the Bible require uncommon sense? Sorry Jenyar, but tell me in all honesty. Do you condone this?
“And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)
and,
"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)
* Are you saying this did not actually occur, that it is allegorical? Now this character is the same being as the one you describe as:
Quote J:
“But Jesus represents God's love for mankind, His feelings towards all of humanity.”
And:
“His work progressively. In fact, that's why the gospel writers were so careful to indicate how God can be seen in Jesus as He was seen in Israel - through its laws, prophecies, rituals and offices.”
* Did this being chill with age or what. Lets take historical context out of the equation, and look at the incidents soberly. Can you condone the above behaviour? C`mon pull the other one, its begging!
Quote J:
“The covenants were how God made his promises.”
* Why did god select only the Jews to form a covenant. Did he not create all mankind? Why is a “loving” god selective?
Quote J:
“For those who live outside His will, who pervert God's justice and threaten his children, Jesus was as condemning in the New Testament as God ever was in the Old.”
* What exactly is this “will” that you speak of?
Allcare.
Quote w:
"People changed, so they had to be treated differently.
As people changed, God, in order to be understood, had to speak to them differently than before."
*Ahhh, an omnioptent god cannot speak in an universal language? K` he seems limited.
"People changed, so they had to be treated differently.
As people changed, God, in order to be understood, had to speak to them differently than before."
*Ahhh, an omnioptent god cannot speak in an universal language? K` he seems limited.
Quote w:
"And? Would you hire an underskilled worker?"
* A worthy teacher can teach.
Quote w:
"Just jump the bandwaggon that God is a hateful character, yeah."
* Nope. I don`t consider Buddha a hateful character. There is a difference.
Allcare.
"And? Would you hire an underskilled worker?"
* A worthy teacher can teach.
Quote w:
"Just jump the bandwaggon that God is a hateful character, yeah."
* Nope. I don`t consider Buddha a hateful character. There is a difference.
Allcare.
stretched,
This is a spurious comment.
It is people who don't speak a universal language that need God to adapt to them.
For one, you are avoiding to answer.
For two, God sent the people a teacher.
Where did you get Buddha into this? We were talking about the God Christians worship.
This is a spurious comment.
It is people who don't speak a universal language that need God to adapt to them.
For one, you are avoiding to answer.
For two, God sent the people a teacher.
Where did you get Buddha into this? We were talking about the God Christians worship.
The bible is obviously valuable as a source of moral advice.
It is one of the best books ever written, and one of the most interesting.
It is one of the best books ever written, and one of the most interesting.
Quote w:
“This is a spurious comment.”
* Sometimes I can be a bit of a monkey.
Quote w:
“It is people who don't speak a universal language that need God to adapt to them.”
*Agreed. I think that is what I said.
Quote w:
“For one, you are avoiding to answer.”
* What if I had a limited salary budget?
Quote w:
“For two, God sent the people a teacher.”
* And what has this teacher taught you water?
Quote w:
“Where did you get Buddha into this? We were talking about the God Christians worship.”
* I contend that the Christian god as depicted in the OT is a hateful character. I don’t require any jumping or wagons.
“This is a spurious comment.”
* Sometimes I can be a bit of a monkey.
Quote w:
“It is people who don't speak a universal language that need God to adapt to them.”
*Agreed. I think that is what I said.
Quote w:
“For one, you are avoiding to answer.”
* What if I had a limited salary budget?
Quote w:
“For two, God sent the people a teacher.”
* And what has this teacher taught you water?
Quote w:
“Where did you get Buddha into this? We were talking about the God Christians worship.”
* I contend that the Christian god as depicted in the OT is a hateful character. I don’t require any jumping or wagons.
Jenyar & Water
You two have unintentionally put an interesting point before us.
It's more than mere separation of authority. That God has executive privilege is not problematic here. But that God uses a different dictionary? For God so loved the world? Ask Adam and Eve. Ask Job. There's even a preacher or two out there who say God planned the necessity of redemption from the outset, so ... there's that, too.
I mean, it's clear enough that, while we shall not murder, genocide isn't murder if God says so. This is something else entirely. This is the equivalent of telling someone to crouch down in order to be taller.
That God lied at Eden is God's prerogative. But we can't call it honest, and we can't call it loving any more than we can call a circle a square.
We see the issue illustrated in one of Water's posts. Which, of course, brings us to ....
I don't see how Stretched jumped on any bandwagon. After all, it is our judgment that makes God's ordination of sin hateful. Remember that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. It's not hateful. The ordination of sin in man according to God's will is a manifestation of His love.
Or like Jenyar's explanation: "Having been a witness to the destruction sin leaves in its wake is one way to realize that salvation doesn't only offer hope for the sinner, but also for his victims."
It's all love. The rapes and murders, the wars and starvation, homosexuality (which God hates) ... all that seeming conflict is just one big warm fuzzy, a radiant expression of love.
That God has chosen this route is only to give us one more reminder of how much God loves us. After all, He blessed our conceptions and births, despite the fact that we're all inadequate for His purposes despite his green-lighting our lives.
You two have unintentionally put an interesting point before us.
Jenyar said:
It's more than mere separation of authority. That God has executive privilege is not problematic here. But that God uses a different dictionary? For God so loved the world? Ask Adam and Eve. Ask Job. There's even a preacher or two out there who say God planned the necessity of redemption from the outset, so ... there's that, too.
I mean, it's clear enough that, while we shall not murder, genocide isn't murder if God says so. This is something else entirely. This is the equivalent of telling someone to crouch down in order to be taller.
That God lied at Eden is God's prerogative. But we can't call it honest, and we can't call it loving any more than we can call a circle a square.
We see the issue illustrated in one of Water's posts. Which, of course, brings us to ....
Water said:
I don't see how Stretched jumped on any bandwagon. After all, it is our judgment that makes God's ordination of sin hateful. Remember that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. It's not hateful. The ordination of sin in man according to God's will is a manifestation of His love.
Or like Jenyar's explanation: "Having been a witness to the destruction sin leaves in its wake is one way to realize that salvation doesn't only offer hope for the sinner, but also for his victims."
It's all love. The rapes and murders, the wars and starvation, homosexuality (which God hates) ... all that seeming conflict is just one big warm fuzzy, a radiant expression of love.
That God has chosen this route is only to give us one more reminder of how much God loves us. After all, He blessed our conceptions and births, despite the fact that we're all inadequate for His purposes despite his green-lighting our lives.
Your "common sense" does not agree with the Bible, and yet it is supposed to be based on the Bible. That is what seems to me "uncommon".stretched said:
No doubt these events did occur (although many manuscripts have '70' in 1 Samuel 6:19), as a temporal judgment. All people die, and this is how God ordained these people would die because of their disobedience. And they correspond to Jesus' teaching about eternal judgment:
Matthew 25:41-43
"Then [Son of Man] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"Then [Son of Man] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
This corresponds to how God revealed Himself to Moses:
Exodus 34:5-7
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.
Hosea 2:23
I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.' "
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.
Hosea 2:23
I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.' "
It is not mine or yours to condone or condemn: God acts as His justice and plan for salvation demands. Sin is against Him, in the first place. You cannot show one instance where God punished someone who had not committed sin against Him. And as He punished those who opposed Israel, He will punish those who oppose Christ, because they represent His own presence.
More correctly: God chose to reveal himself to his servant Abraham because He loved him, and gave him a promise. From Abraham He chose Isaac, and from Isaac He chose Jacob (Israel - Gen. 32:28) to become the nation He lead out of Egypt. Through them His salvation would come to the rest of the earth. They would be witnesses to His power, His love and faithfulness, but also bear the brunt of His justice. Their firstborn sons would have died with the Egyptians if they had not marked their doors with the blood of the Passover Lamb. God's selectiveness meant that His name would be preserved among the false gods of mankind, and that knowledge of Him would spread to the rest of the world. He is still selective: He chooses truth above falsehood, justice and mercy above injustice, and faith above works. Like He separated light and dark at creation, He separated good from evil, and sides with the good.
Deut. 7:7-10
The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deut. 9:4-5 After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you. It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deut. 9:4-5 After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you. It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I'm sure you've heard most of it by now, but I'll summarize:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"