Even if Bible is God's Word, it is still useless for guidance

Joeman

Eviiiiiiiil Clown
Registered Senior Member
Simply because the moral in the bible changes over time.

In OT time, God condone slavery. However according to Christians today, God is against slavery. God is either FOR or AGAINST slavery. It makes no sense to be for slavery at one point in time and against it in another point in time.

In OT time, God is against body piercings. It pissess off God so bad that God said people with piercings should be killed. In NT time, God is okay with piercing. Society today is a lot different from 2000 years ago. What's God's stance on piercing today? We don't know.

In OT time, God gets really pissed if a person wears clothes made off two pieces of fabric. In NT time, God is okay with it. What about today? Does God hate thongs? God is either FOR or AGAINST people wear clothes made off two kinds of fabric. Which one is it?

In NT time, God is against women talking inside a church. Today, God is okay with it. Or is it?

Since Bible is the one and only universal answer book and God is too busy dicking around to come down and update his book, it only makes sense that the bible is timeless. However, God kept changing his mind. If the bible teaches situational morals only, it is pretty much useless for today.
 
Maybe it's because you never read it seriously. It's not a "universal answer book", it's a record of answers. Some things have eternal value, others are shadows pointing to things of eternal value. While people argue about what God is against and what God is for, they neglect to address the issue themselves in any practical way.

You might have noticed that certain things change over time. Mostly these changes are not arbitrary, they result from particular attitudes and reactions to them. Issues about order, holiness and purity aren't addressed in the same way today as 4000 years ago. The Bible addresses those attitudes and responses - how people relate to each other and to God - because patching up the symptoms serves no purpose if the source is never addressed: the human heart.
 
Jenyar: Maybe it's because you never read it seriously. It's not a "universal answer book", it's a record of answers. Some things have eternal value, others are shadows pointing to things of eternal value. While people argue about what God is against and what God is for, they neglect to address the issue themselves in any practical way.
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M*W: Jenyar, you are only talking about christians. Why is it that of all people christians argue this point?
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Jenyar: You might have noticed that certain things change over time. Mostly these changes are not arbitrary, they result from particular attitudes and reactions to them. Issues about order, holiness and purity aren't addressed in the same way today as 4000 years ago.
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M*W: Well, let's hope not!
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Jenyar: The Bible addresses those attitudes and responses - how people relate to each other and to God - because patching up the symptoms serves no purpose if the source is never addressed: the human heart.
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M*W: "the human heart." There is no relationship to "the human heart." You are projecting your own thoughts and feelings into your statement.
 
God Moves In Seasons, And Times And Purposes----all Coming Together To Fulfill His Will, Just As We Suit Our Selves For Our Natural Seasons, So Does God, He Has A Definate Revelation Of His Will To Be In Motion At Its Destined Time, Its Not That He Changes, Its That Its Time For More Of The Plan To Unfold, And Those In His Spirit Will Understand This. :)
 
In OT time, God condone slavery.
There's a difference between allowing slavery and being for slavery. After all, while God allowed divorce in OT times, Jesus didn't, saying God allowed divorce in OT times because their hearts were stubborn. Furthermore, the Jews practice of slavery was signficantly less harsh than Southern slavery, for Jews would eventually give slaves their freedom.

In OT time, God is against body piercings. It pissess off God so bad that God said people with piercings should be killed. In NT time, God is okay with piercing. Society today is a lot different from 2000 years ago. What's God's stance on piercing today?
Sometimes God gives laws only to teach deeper principles. Whether one Jewish law appears non-sensical doesn't matter unless if there's no principle taught. When these deeper principles and laws no longer need to be taught to men in the way of giving their physical analogs as laws, God is free to liberate men from the old laws.


In NT time, God is against women talking inside a church. Today, God is okay with it. Or is it?
You're confusing Paul with God here.
 
okinrus said:
There's a difference between allowing slavery and being for slavery. After all, while God allowed divorce in OT times, Jesus didn't, saying God allowed divorce in OT times because their hearts were stubborn. Furthermore, the Jews practice of slavery was signficantly less harsh than Southern slavery, for Jews would eventually give slaves their freedom.

That makes it "less harsh"??? :confused:


Jenyar said:
Some things have eternal value, others are shadows pointing to things of eternal value.

What things have "eternal value"?
 
Quote Jenyar:
"You might have noticed that certain things change over time."

* Like the Christian god for example?

Quote okinrus:
"There's a difference between allowing slavery and being for slavery."

* If you saw an old helpless lady being mugged, would you intervene?

Heh, nice to be back.
 
okinrus said:
There's a difference between allowing slavery and being for slavery.

Hahahaha. This reminds me of a funny story I heard at a ELCA debate on homosexuality. One pastor claimed that there is a difference between God disallowing homosexuality and against it. God disallowed homosexuality, but that doesn't mean God is against it. Or the other way around I can't remember. Nevertheless, God is not against homosexual priest. Brilliant.

God doesn't allow killing, but that doesn't mean he is against it.
God said people have to believe in order to be saved, but that doesn't mean he requires it for salvation.

Sometimes God gives laws only to teach deeper principles. Whether one Jewish law appears non-sensical doesn't matter unless if there's no principle taught. When these deeper principles and laws no longer need to be taught to men in the way of giving their physical analogs as laws, God is free to liberate men from the old laws.

That's not the reason for the law. The OT says the whole purpose of the law is define righteousness. It gives guidance for morality. I am too tired to dig up the line. It's in deut chapter 5-6. The Torah says law is eternal. No one add to it or takes away from it.

You're confusing Paul with God here.

2 Timothy says all scriptures are God breathed. You can't pick and choose what are God's Words and what is not.
 
The public face

'Tis true that the Bible is not supposed to be a universal answer book. Some wisdom is required, or maybe not, since wisdom seems to be the problem (see Genesis 3).

The problem seems to be, well, nature itself. Even by the most faithful renditions of scripture, the one thing that cannot be held constant is how people perceive the Word, what it means to them as they learn and understand it. So the one thing that changes is how people respond to scripture.

If we are to attempt to understand the scriptures in their original context, legends of Christ among the Apostolic generation, perhaps, one thing that happens is that all those years, all those lives spent, are set aside for naught as all we have learned as a human species in the intervening period is set aside as apocryphal at best.

What strikes me is that the most public face of Christianity in America treats the Bible more like a collection of fables and faery tales than any contemptuous atheistic characterization I've encountered. And then there's that sense of what I would call matronly nagging except that it abuses a stereotype of dubious qualification to begin with; it is enough to say that there's a reason their children are all crazy.

Regression, progressive downfall:
Grabbing what's there and still wanting it all!

On words they fall!

Obsession, religious belief,
Worshipped on Sunday, forgotten all week!

One foot in hell

Taking the truth form the Book and then twisting it,
Feeling they're touched by the Lord.
Loving their neighbor, yet tasting the flavor of sin
But seeing no wrong;
Cramming the wisdom that righteously flows in them,
Walking the crooked straight line;
Closing of minds to these innocents crimes
Now they're deaf, dumb, and blind!


(Forbidden)

It doesn't always have to be this way. And it isn't. But the public face of American Christianity rejects that other part of itself.°

In this context, no, the Bible is of no use as a legitimate guidance tool. But this is not the only context available. Coffee-table atheistic talking points aside, there are much more important issues afoot than one person's testament to the truculence of failed understanding.

To consider an example at least slightly more substantial than body piercing (apparently the bit about taking a crap doesn't fit well into a sound-bite): McKinley, in his article, "When Christ Was Gay" points to a functional contrast in American Christianity:

A divorced man who remarries is entering into an adulterous relationship. And it's not just a relationship; it's an adulterous lifestyle because the remarried man chooses to continue living in the adulterous relationship for the rest of his life (or until he divorces and remarries again). However, if you ask this adulterous man if he is still a Christian, he will say something like, "I believe God has forgiven me and I'm now living under his grace." And ask him if he's willing to leave his current wife in order to "turn from his adulterous lifestyle," and he will refuse because "God's grace has already saved him." But this is the same man who earlier claimed that the homosexual must turn from his "sinful" lifestyle as a condition of receiving God's grace.

Yeah. Just try that one on "middle America". Evangelicals. Fundamentalists. There are, however, a host of sects throughout these United States wherein, while people might not have thought about it in exactly those terms, such an argument would find even possibly majorities nodding and saying, "Sounds about right." In those cases, you're preaching to the choir.

Nonetheless, McKinley has a point: such a seemingly arbitrary double-standard doesn't seem to be a modern perception so much as a modern rejection of the Bible. And that sort of arbitrary--"I refuse the least of His brethren because I just don't like 'em"--rejection leads to exactly the unwieldy permissiveness that, strangely enough, socially conservative Christians fear of progressive society.

Are these Christians hypocrites? By what definition, for surely there seems something hypo-critical that leads to the appearance of a double-standard. But what of the Christian standard?

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in." (Matthew 23.13)

"You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'"

And he called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand: not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." (Matthew 15.7-11)

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

"Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him ...."
(Matthew 6.1-8)


Revised Standard Version

There are plenty for whom the overarching spectre of American Christianity does, in fact, meet such a standard for hypocrisy.

We can certainly waste a good number of words expressing disgust at either the notion of hypocrisy or the value of it, but is it, for instance, that Christianity is persecuted, or that a form of Christianity so deviant as to ignore its own foundation is rejected?

The Bible, characterized and empowered by such bedlam, becomes not a tool for guidance or understanding, but a weapon to wield against demons raised in the minds of the faithful and projected unto a world no longer unsuspecting.

You've taken all that you can take. Time marches on again.
You've broken all that you can break. Time marches on again.
Spoken to those who would listen,
Taken from those who would give their attention:
You quoted Ecclesiastes and you brought all our hope to its knees.

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust
You just keep on hating the whole world if you must
If you think that's just.

Take up that stone and feel its weight. Time marches on again.
Cry out, "Throw first before it's too late!" Time marches on again.
Run to the shelter of sarcasm and the shield of permanent grin;
Wrapped in your cloak of superiority so thick that that none of that
shit can get in.


(Floater)
____________________

Notes:

° the public face of American Christianity rejects that part of itself - "The Lord said, 'Peter, I can see your house from here'." (Roger Waters)

Works Cited:

McKinley, Brian Elroy. "When Christ Was Gay". See http://www.elroy.net/ehr/gay.html

"The Holy Bible". Revised Standard Version. See http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html
 
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stretched said:
Quote Jenyar:
"You might have noticed that certain things change over time."

* Like the Christian god for example?
When you changed from a first-grader who had to be told to stand in line before class, to a graduate who could discipline himself, was it because your teachers changed, or because their patience payed off?
 
Tiassa, hypocrisy does run rampant; it caused me, in frustration, to doubt if Christ was real--yet, He showed Himself to be true. How? It can be summed up like this: "If we say we have fellowship with him [Christ], and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." - 1 John 1:6

Yet, this doesn't discount the Truth--God's Word. Let us look to purer examples, those that are in lands where Christianity isn't highly esteemed, such as Communist China and the hostile Islamic states. They live lives worthy of honor and applause even from atheists, because they return hate with love. Richard Wurmbrand, a minister during the time of Communist Romania, said that an ex-german officer came up to him in the street. Richard invited him into his house seeing he was in need. Well, the officer goes on to say that he used to work in a concentration camp and had butchered many of the prisoners inside as the Allies were about to liberate it. Richard, who was a Jew and whose wife's family had been killed in the same camp, made this comment, "Sir, my wife's family died in that concentration camp, but I wager that if I introduce you to her, she'll make you coffee and some dinner." He went on to preach the gospel to the officer, who subsequently gave his life to Christ. Richard told him that the wager was still on, and so took the man to his wife. Instead of hating the man who had killed her entire family, she embraced him as a new brother in Christ.

See, these people lived with death warrants on their heads for being Christians. Do not discount Christ because of a society full of hypocrisy. Look at the athiests; many admitted to Richard that they prayed when the Germans were surrounding them at Stalingrad (for he was later arrested, interrogated, and tortured for 14 years in Communist prisons because of his faith). Might the distractions of comfort and wealth distort people's perspectives? Didn't the prophets cry out against the corruption in Israel in the Old Testament? See, man corrupts the things of God. It is why God sent His Spirit--to reprove the world of sin (John 16:8). "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Christ is the Truth.
 
Quote Jenyar:
"When you changed from a first-grader who had to be told to stand in line before class, to a graduate who could discipline himself, was it because your teachers changed, or because their patience payed off?"

* Que?

If Jesus is god (as Christians would have me believe), why is his character in the NT so different to his character in the OT?
 
Let us hear from an ancient apologist, Justin Martyr, who suffered (as his name says) as a martyr: " Again, if any of the accused deny the name, and say that he is not a Christian, you acquit him, as having no evidence against him as a wrong-doer; but if any one acknowledge that he is a Christian, you punish him on account of this acknowledgment. Justice requires that you inquire into the life both of him who confesses and of him who denies, that by his deeds it may be apparent what kind of man each is. For as some who have been taught by the Master, Christ, not to deny Him, give encouragement to others when they are put to the question, so in all probability do those who lead wicked lives give occasion to those who, without consideration, take upon them to accuse all the Christians of impiety and wickedness. And this also is not right."

In the lands of oppression this statement makes perfect sense. And as they have proven true through the ages, let us take hold of the hope that they found in Christ--only then does life have purpose; only then does it have meaning.
 
Stretched: God's nature is not different. In the Ezekiel 38, God says that He wants men not to die, because "the soul that sin dies," and He hates sin. He wants men to come back to Him. In the New Testament, God sends forth the promised Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The New Testament writers expounded more on grace and mercy because it had finally come. Yet, they also speak of a judgment, that same Judgment spoken of in the prophets to come; it is why Revelations ends the scriptures, because it marries the image of Wrath and Love. God punishes them that refused to accept Him, not out of cruelty but love, since they that had accepted Him were persecuted by them that did not accept Him. He demonstrates His love in rewarding His faithful and diligent with eternal life with Him. The only difference between foe and friend of God is the grace extended by Him, because man has the choice to accept or reject Christ. Sin is why Judgment comes, and this [sin] came from man's rebellion.
 
Welcome, Timotheus.

Can you or anyone else promise that the examples of China or Islamic lands there is an appropriate context? To what degree do they render unto Caesar? How do they carry the fight to stand in the square and pray loudly for other people's praise?

Chinese Catholics, for instance, ought to be free. But at the same time, my respect for them would diminish as they shed the role of the oppressed. The focus will have shifted from their status to their beliefs, and while I get along well enough with Catholics, I cannot endorse their theology or the current political fruit it bears.

And in such a context as free Catholicism presents itself, the Bible is not a tool for guidance or understanding, but rather a howl against the progress of the human endeavor.

People have a right to religious beliefs. Having secured those rights, there is no guarantee that people have any clue what to do with them.
 
Hi Tim,

"He demonstrates His love in rewarding His faithful and diligent with eternal life with Him."

* And those that don`t make the grade?

"Sin is why Judgment comes, and this [sin] came from man's rebellion."

* Which was pre-ordained and in which man had no choice.
 
If Jesus is god (as Christians would have me believe), why is his character in the NT so different to his character in the OT?
There are many reasons why you might come to such a conclusion, but just because you think so doesn't mean He is different.

During the long history of Israel, they came into contact with many aspects of God, but most of all His faithfulness and grace. But they also experienced His judgment more immediately, the way a child experiences his parents' discipline more directly, while those outside experience it from the outside. When you realize that distinction, seemingly difficult things like God's jealousy becomes clear: He was protective, because He was educating them in a faith that would eventually have to spread into the rest of the world. Everything He did they experienced in an immediate sense: his blessings, his curses, his anger and his love.

But Jesus represents God's love for mankind, His feelings towards all of humanity. Through Jesus we got to know God in a short period of time and with a specific intent: to reconcile the world with Him. Jesus fits into the greater context of Israel's faith in God, as a continuation of God's creative work on earth. It would be senseless to attempt a side-by-side comparison, as if we were looking at God in parallel universes and not seeing His work progressively. In fact, that's why the gospel writers were so careful to indicate how God can be seen in Jesus as He was seen in Israel - through its laws, prophecies, rituals and offices.

Because the law was not who God was - it was how God judged sin, but it could not forgive sin. The various sacrifices were appeals to God for forgiveness, which He regulated and accepted. Prophecies were how God pointed out future and present judgment and salvation. The covenants were how God made his promises. None of these things give a complete picture of who God is, that would be left to those who lived in a relationship with Him. And if we go by Noah, Job, Abraham, Solomon, David and all the fathers of the faith, we see them looking at God as the source of love and salvation, as someone like Jesus. For those who live outside His will, who pervert God's justice and threaten his children, Jesus was as condemning in the New Testament as God ever was in the Old.
 
stretched said:
Quote Jenyar:
"When you changed from a first-grader who had to be told to stand in line before class, to a graduate who could discipline himself, was it because your teachers changed, or because their patience payed off?"

* Que?

If Jesus is god (as Christians would have me believe), why is his character in the NT so different to his character in the OT?

People changed, so they had to be treated differently.
As people changed, God, in order to be understood, had to speak to them differently than before.
 
stretched said:
Hi Tim,

"He demonstrates His love in rewarding His faithful and diligent with eternal life with Him."

* And those that don`t make the grade?
Nobody makes the grade, that's why it's called grace.

"Sin is why Judgment comes, and this [sin] came from man's rebellion."

* Which was pre-ordained and in which man had no choice.
You can decide to indulge in sin or to repent and move away from it. It is a choice as much as anything has ever been a choice. You may not have had a choice to be born because mercy was shown to Adam, but inheriting the world he left us is no more unfair than inheriting the world God promises those who take refuge in Him. Nobody who wants it have to complain of not getting it. God made it available in Christ.
 
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