Euthenasia

[Xerxes]

"Honesty without compassion and understanding, is not honesty, but subtle hostility. "
Dr. Rose Franzblau

What does that mean? Is it supposed to be an insult? nope..
It means you lack compassion and understanding on the issue, and this can be directly translated to hostility. THe same hostility that becomes more and more evident as you post. Your last one has been, quite honestly, downright pathetic.

What I'm trying to say, is that You are beggining to realize that I"m in the right on this issue. You feel antagonized, and that's basically what you've become: the antagonsist. If you werent, I'd doubt you'd feel any such need to be hostile or respond at all, (especially if you honestly believe I'm so stupid)

Think about such antagonizing this way--
an ugly person walks up to a better looking person, and says, 'your ugly!'
How would the better looking person respond? I"m quite confident they'd say something along the lines of "right....:bugeye: "

and then then best looking person comes up to the ugliest looking person and says "your ugly!!"
The ugly guy would obviously be upset, and show this through his hostility, not because he's mad, but because he knows it's true, and that he's in the wrong.



Although I dont know for sure where you've realized that I'm in the right, although by judging your responses, I'd say you realized this truth shortly after my first post. And then came to the full realization after my second post and link.

Like I said earlier, anyone who is actually intent on killing themselves can do it VERY easily. I'm talking about people who cannot leave a hospital.

Thats not what I gained from the context of your dialogue. You seem to feel that everyone should have the right to die whenever they want too, hence the quote "its my body and I'll do what I fucking want with it!"

Nonetheless, a person who is COMPLETELY incapable of leaving their own hospital bed (or moving at all) shows one thing and one thing only. The amount of cells dying versus those being produced is massive -- meaning they are litterally on their deathbed, AT THE VERY MOST, a day away from death.and what good is euthenesia then? All it'll do is induce the dare mentallity of, "you do that and I'll do something even worse!" until we are all in a sick situation. This is what tourism of the option is. People who arent 24 hours away from death are capable to some extents, of getting in a wheelchair, and killing themselves at home. This could mean doing nothing more than eating an entire economy bottle of tylenol.


I do compare euthenesia to lethal injection. That's exactly what it is, but most people who get it want it! All Euthenisia does is make a suicide convenient. Nobody can stop you from killing yourself if you want to. Ofcoarse, if you are to die an unnatural death, then it should be you to take your last breath, and not an assailant. And I'll repeat it again -- if you make it legal at all, it WILL inevitably become common practice, leading to many attrocities.

And I'm telling you for the last time that in my eyes you're still a pussy. I keep up my training and play for my teams when I have the flu. I don't in any way at all feel like crawling into a corner and dieing.

Exerting yourself during the flu isn't a wise decision. Experts believe you should avoid any serious physical activities until 24 to 48 hours after the flu. Cellular metabolism is RAPIDLY accelerated during the flu. Meaning, even if you eat alot, your body cannot supply enough energy for considerable physical activity. If you choose to train during a period of the flu, your coaches should slap you upside the head. For one, you run the risk of infecting the entire team. As well, you run the risk of devoloping more serious problems. As I've said earlier, this is only cool in the sense of rubbing your groin against a cold cheesegrater. It's your choice.

If you can understand dare mentality, then you can understand the logical dangers of legalized euthenesia. EVERYBODY has the option of deciding their own fate -- all you're trying to do is make it more convenient. And I've tried to tell you numerous times that this convenience comes at a serious price, in which social standards are completely messed with. YOu need to peel deeper into the onion.


At one time, I had the same mentallity as you. After a while,though, I came to realize the social reprecussions and all the wrong motives behind such a practice. And it's painfully obvious that you are beggining to realize this. -- Its your hostility, you've emodied the antagonist

Here's the proof if I havent already mentioned it in this thread:
You use the words 'fuckin' and 'idiot' more times than I'd care to care to count.




Why dont you try responding to my posts more maturely next time, otherwise, dont waste your breath, 'cuz it shows me not how you could have any points, but how you have none at all. Remember, hostility is a sign of weakness. People will be hostile when they cant back their beliefs.

 

[Tyler]

Holy crow. Every day I learn there's a lower level of stupidity in the universe than I previously expected.


Your first part of the post is just stupid and useless.



"Thats not what I gained from the context of your dialogue. You seem to feel that everyone should have the right to die whenever they want too, hence the quote "its my body and I'll do what I fucking want with it!""

I do. I think everyone should be able to do what they want to their body as long as it doesn't harm another human being. But, if you had read what I wrote you would have seen this part of my first post: "If someone is sincere, there is ALWAYS a way to kill yourself easily. To me, it means the system works."

Amazing.



"only. The amount of cells dying versus those being produced is massive -- meaning they are litterally on their deathbed, AT THE VERY MOST, a day away from death"

My great grandmother has been 'on her death bed' for a year.



"if you make it legal at all, it WILL inevitably become common practice, leading to many attrocities"

Do you have any logic behind this? Please state it if you do.



"Exerting yourself during the flu isn't a wise decision. Experts believe you should avoid any serious physical activities until 24 to 48 hours after the flu. Cellular metabolism is RAPIDLY accelerated during the flu. Meaning, even if you eat alot, your body cannot supply enough energy for considerable physical activity. If you choose to train during a period of the flu, your coaches should slap you upside the head. For one, you run the risk of infecting the entire team. As well, you run the risk of devoloping more serious problems. As I've said earlier, this is only cool in the sense of rubbing your groin against a cold cheesegrater. It's your choice."

I'm 16 and I have an excellent immune system. In three years of serious hockey I have never once encountered a problem playing/training with the flu. And none of my teammates have. Tell an NHL player to stop when he has the flu. You'll get laughed out of the room. Same with junior players.



"EVERYBODY has the option of deciding their own fate -- all you're trying to do is make it more convenient. And I've tried to tell you numerous times that this convenience comes at a serious price, in which social standards are completely messed with. YOu need to peel deeper into the onion."

Your right. I want people who want to die to be able to do it without pain. Slitting your writsts, drowning, jumping off a building....all cause pain. And how is one to do it in the hospital? Social standards will be messed with? Give me one example to back yourself up. I can give you a massive example in one word to show the reverse of what you believe; prohibition. Alcohol became cooler with prohibition, not the other way around.



"Its your hostility, you've emodied the antagonist"

I'm like this in every arguement ever where someone is an idiot. Always.



"Why dont you try responding to my posts more maturely next time, otherwise, dont waste your breath, 'cuz it shows me not how you could have any points, but how you have none at all. Remember, hostility is a sign of weakness. People will be hostile when they cant back their beliefs"

No, you fucking moron, I'm hostile because you're a fucking moron.



Have you given up on the 'taking away the right to live' little shit arguement you put up? Are you not mature enough to admitt defeat?

 

[Tyler]

Out of curiosity Elbaz, where do yo uget off telling me to concentrate on writing a post because I swear when you spent the majority of your post telling me that I already know I am wrong (which is teh funniest thing I've herad in a while)/an idiot/detrimental by playing through the flu/immature....

 

[Xerxes]

I do. I think everyone should be able to do what they want to their body as long as it doesn't harm another human being.

 

[Xerxes]

I do. I think everyone should be able to do what they want to their body as long as it doesn't harm another human being.

That's exactly my point. You can do anything you want AS LONG as it doesnt have the potential to hurt anyone else. That's where confidentiality is involved in medicine. If a man is diagnosed with HIV, then the doctor has an OBLIGATION to tell the man's wife. You could probably guess why. But if the man is in prison, and cant come into contact with his wife, then the doctor should respect his wishes.

My point is......legalizing Euthenesia does that. People always have the option of killing themselves. Euthenesia only lends convenience. Confidentiality comes in when the patients wishes are not taken to heart. Most people want to live, and when you give doctors the power to advocate any form of suicide, IT BECOMES MAINSTREAM and has the potential to harm those who don't want to die. They take euthenesia as advice, or as the BEST option. Right now, I'll make it very clear that a hospice is the way and place to die for terminally ill people. Euthenesia doesnt make everybody's life better.

Do you get it yet?? When it becomes mainstream, just as any other practice, it can harm other human beings. There are almost ALWAYS a wealth of better options.



ANd maybe you dont yet realize that there are infact painless ways of dying!! YOu dont have to take a knife and slit your hands, or blow your brains out (for which pain lasts only 1/10th of a second). THere are so many chemicals, that anybody could get they're hands on.

My great grandmother has been 'on her death bed' for a year.

This is your chance to inject her with something!!!!

No, I am actually very sorry to hear that . But when you're on your deathbed for a year, somethings going on. Nobody can sit on a deathbed for that long. Deathbeads are when you are only hours, or days away from dying. You must be confusing it with something else.

I'm 16 and I have an excellent immune system.

Do you realize having an excellent immune system is MUCH MUCH worse for getting the flu. I'll explain. When you do get a flu, you're immune system will go insane. Youre body temperature will skyrocket, and you'll consume close to 4000 calories a day. you could have serious trouble moving, and any serious physical exertion could result in death. Most kids, who generally have bad immune systems, will get sick more frequently, yet considerably less intense, while those, usually adults, will get sick much less infrequently but with higher intensity.

ANd I'll also point out, that even people with excellent immune systems cannot evade the flu, since the viruses are so small and multiply at unbelievabe speeds. I'm 16 too, and when I get the flu, it usually doesnt last more than 3 days and has never in my life been longer than 5. That's considered normal. I'm willing to abondon wrestling, or any of my other sports for 3 days. If you're not, I cant imagine how many times you're heads been bashed against the side boards . You might be talking about colds, which are in contrast, the best time for all or any physical activities.

And, BTW, if you, or your teamates experience no problems with the flu, it means that your immune systems are utter crap. Physical condition means very little to the WBC.

Do you have any logic behind this? Please state it if you do.

It becomes mainstream because of commonality. This advocates tourism of the option. I've already pointed out the dare mentallity that comes with medicine. Look at the genetics industry today, and idea's like cloning. Do you get what I'm trying to say, yet?

Out of curiosity Elbaz, where do yo uget off telling me to concentrate on writing a post because I swear when you spent the majority of your post telling me that I already know I am wrong (which is teh funniest thing I've herad in a while)/an idiot/detrimental by playing through the flu/immature....

I spent the majority of my post telling you that you know I'm right because you had a post full of swears!! I never said I knew you knew I was right, before you started swearing. And I never called you or anyone an idiot. I've never even done so on sciforums. Maybe you took it that way because you realized that playing through the flu is considered stupid by most doctors as presented by my evidence.



I'm didn't come here to make any enemies. Calling me a F**** idiot, or dumbass isn't insulting at all. You can post those kinds of things if they make you feel any better, but to me, its nothing more than a ridiculous waste of time.

 

[Tyler]

"My point is......legalizing Euthenesia does that. People always have the option of killing themselves. Euthenesia only lends convenience."

Yup. And I don't know about you, but if I had the chance between an extremely painful death and a simple one, I would choose the simple one.


"Most people want to live, and when you give doctors the power to advocate any form of suicide, IT BECOMES MAINSTREAM and has the potential to harm those who don't want to die. They take euthenesia as advice, or as the BEST option. Right now, I'll make it very clear that a hospice is the way and place to die for terminally ill people. Euthenesia doesnt make everybody's life better"

What logic do you have to back this up? Alcohol was more popular when it was illegal. Many people are driven to try marijuana because it's illegal. Almost everything has been more popular and alluring when it was illegal. So what proof do you have to suggest that legal suicide would make people want to do it? And a doctor, in a euthanasia-legalized society would be restricted from advising euthanasia. There would have to be massive restrictions on euthanasia, of course, including the advocacy of only allowing them to state the option and not advise it.



"I'm 16 too, and when I get the flu, it usually doesnt last more than 3 days and has never in my life been longer than 5. That's considered normal. I'm willing to abondon wrestling, or any of my other sports for 3 days."

Missing 3-5 days of training for me would be serious for me. In competitive hockey, the only time you sit out is if you're actually physically unable to play.



"If you're not, I cant imagine how many times you're heads been bashed against the side boards"

A good number of times! I still remember my first real concusion. We were playing a AAA team a year older and they were fucking huge. I took a guy down on the first shift and he just stood up and looked at me and said; 'you're dead'. Soon as the puck left our zone, he turned around and FLATTENED me. Helmet falls back and my head hits the ice. Ouch. I threw up on the bench, took a bunch of aspirin, couldn't open my eyes the headache was so bad. And I got back on the ice in 6 minutes.

That's hockey.



"It becomes mainstream because of commonality. This advocates tourism of the option. I've already pointed out the dare mentallity that comes with medicine. Look at the genetics industry today, and idea's like cloning. Do you get what I'm trying to say, yet?"

What about cloning? And no, I don't get what you're saying. I don't see anything to suggest that suicide would become the popular move. If someone is guaranteed to die a painful death and has the option of suicide, I say they should have the option.



"No, I am actually very sorry to hear that . But when you're on your deathbed for a year, somethings going on. Nobody can sit on a deathbed for that long. Deathbeads are when you are only hours, or days away from dying. You must be confusing it with something else."

Deathbed. She's senial, bed-ridden, cant move a muscle and dieing very slowly. Talking to her is, litereally, like talking to death itself.



"I'm didn't come here to make any enemies. Calling me a F**** idiot, or dumbass isn't insulting at all. You can post those kinds of things if they make you feel any better, but to me, its nothing more than a ridiculous waste of time."

The right to suicide takes away your right to life. That's one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard.

 

[Xerxes]

Sorry for responding so late -- These bastard teachers of mine won't let me sleep

Firstly, I'll get to the point about your grandmother. I've never heard of anyone being on their deathbed for that long. Something is probably being done to keep her alive. Generally, someone dies only a short matter of time from getting on their death bed, as it's classically defined as a biological process not ment to last more than a few days at most. A hospice might be a good idea, or something like that, as pain can be tempered. Although I can't speak for you and your family.

http://www.cmf.org.uk/ethics/twelve.htm (same link as before)
ofcoarse as you've pointed, many sites on the net, some information can be innacurate or misleading, but I have taken some interesting points from this one.

It is widely believed that there are only two options open to patients with terminal illness: either they die slowly in unrelieved suffering or they receive euthanasia. In fact, there is a middle way, that of creative and compassionate caring. Meticulous research in Palliative medicine has in recent years shown that virtually all unpleasant symptoms experienced in the process of terminal illness can be either relieved or substantially alleviated by techniques already available.

Things like a hospice dont take life away, rather they usher death in. Euthenesia is so complex. All scientists have one special rule that can NEVER be broken, at the expense of their scientific integrity. That is, an lab of any sort can NEVER (absolutely never) be designed to kill a living organism. There are loopholes, many of which are acceptable. They usually talk about that for 30seconds in the first coarse of biology. But it's the most important scientific rule there is (besides never assuming anything).

Usually, those who support Euthenesia witness someone dying painfully, just as you are with your grandma. You might remember the movie Lorenzo's oil, in which the kid was dying a horribly painful death. Cases like that spark the controversy. Although pain can be allevietated, and death can be ushered, you could never fully bring the kid back. (things might change with nanotechnology, well have to see). He couldn't make the decision to live or die, and if he cant decide, then who should? That gives others, even trained professioinals, the power to kill a living organism without consent. That undermines the ethics, and it denies that person the choice of how they want to leave.

In contrast, you could put someone in a hospice, or under pallative care so as not to keep them clinging to life, but to let them go. The problem is, the families, and the doctors dont want to see death. It's the most disgusting thing next to drinking your own puke. It serves as a pain on the doctors and the families, leading them to pursue the option of euthenesia above all others, including the better options. This is what gives them the right to kill, sometimes without consent, and to tour the option more readilly when there are better things.

Now, if your not a vegetable, and can move and such, then you still have the option of killing yourself. And believe me, there are painless ways of taking your own life instead of using knives.

What logic do you have to back this up? Alcohol was more popular when it was illegal. Many people are driven to try marijuana because it's illegal. Almost everything has been more popular and alluring when it was illegal. So what proof do you have to suggest that legal suicide would make people want to do it?

There's a big difference between alcohol, marijuana and death. Alcohol and marijuana don't give people any power to take your life and necessarilly pressure you, given that you can make your own decisions. It cant drain your money unless your a complete retard. Death can make life easier for the doctors, families, the administration can be profitable, and families would much rather see someone die than watch them suffer. Same with the doctors. They are given the option of masking other treatments, or marking them down as worse when in reality they arent. In Euthenesia, they are given the power to advise you. A load of their back, huh?

Even massive amounts of paperwork, and procedure wouldn't be enough to do it. People trust the word of their doctors. When it says on a sheet of paper that pallative care is better than euthenesia, and the doctor says "for your condition it isn't", they would likely listen to the doctor.

Doctors have a simple job: find the problem and give all possible solutions. Death is not a solution, it's an escape. Even advising it has nothing to do with their job. And finally, if the person did infact feel as if they could not take it, even in a hospice, or under temperment, then they can kill themselves by doing something like filling their car with exhuast, or ingesting to much of a specific chemical, leading to instantaneous Death. The notions sound bad, but they arent painful, and leave FULL power in the hands of the patient.
Do you think a Temperment is still an option at that point, you dont have to keep them on life support, as is living in a hospice.

There would have to be massive restrictions on euthanasia, of course, including the advocacy of only allowing them to state the option and not advise it.

Good point. But ultimately, power lies in the hands of the doctors, and in the eyes of the law, it's very difficult to distinguish between stating the option, and advising it, given that the manner you present it in is opionated (all doctors have medical opinions.).


Lastly, I'd like to touch down on one point. Doctor Patient confidentiality. Doctors have a responsibility to keep the confidentiality of the patient (being that it doesn't harm anybody else) at all costs. If the patient said they wanted to kill themselves, the doctor would have to realize two things. (1) He cannot kill them and (2) he cant tell anyone if unless it affects them directly. The doctor would first have to tell them about other options possibly better, and if nothing can convince them, the doctor could tell them of better methods of suicide. That could be pardoned by the state, but never legalized as it'd set a dangerous precedent.

What about cloning? And no, I don't get what you're saying.

They start out with small organism, climb the ladder to eventally to insects, then to mammals -- and then to humans which is being done right now. That takes away someones right to individuality, and if I'm not mistaken, the UN recognizes that as a basic human right.

A good number of times! I still remember my first real concusion.

I still remember my first concussion. Hehe, it was on the playground in grade two. In comparison to yours it was slow, involving accidentally running my forehead onto metal tubing, repeatadly....don't ask. But honestly, if you get any concussion, it's good to stop playing for a few days. The wellbeing of your brain should be more important than a couple of games. Bad concussional headaches could lead to hemmoraging and a heap of other unwanted crap. Seriously, man. Your coach should be telling you guys about the dangers of concussions. They are EXTRMEMELY hazardous.



Hey, I doubt we'll ever be able to convince the other person, as we both seem to be firmly set in our beliefs, but I think we can agree on one thing. Death is inevitable.

 

[Tyler]

"Sorry for responding so late -- These bastard teachers of mine won't let me sleep"

Not a problem. School comes first. Er..... well around 7th for me!



"Firstly, I'll get to the point about your grandmother. I've never heard of anyone being on their deathbed for that long. Something is probably being done to keep her alive. Generally, someone dies only a short matter of time from getting on their death bed, as it's classically defined as a biological process not ment to last more than a few days at most. A hospice might be a good idea, or something like that, as pain can be tempered. Although I can't speak for you and your family."

Then I apologize for using the term deathbed incorrectly. What I am trying to communicate is that she has been in a bed, slowly dieing and completely useless (she can't talk, keep a conversation, eat.....) for almost a year now.



"Usually, those who support Euthenesia witness someone dying painfully, just as you are with your grandma. You might remember the movie Lorenzo's oil, in which the kid was dying a horribly painful death. Cases like that spark the controversy. Although pain can be allevietated, and death can be ushered, you could never fully bring the kid back."

I was for euthanasia before my great grandmothers case, though point taken.


"He couldn't make the decision to live or die, and if he cant decide, then who should?"

No one. When you reach the position that you are possibly going to enter the state of being a potentially life-long vegetable, you should be given the oppurtunity to decide whether or not you want to be killed if that point reaches.


"There's a big difference between alcohol, marijuana and death. Alcohol and marijuana don't give people any power to take your life and necessarilly pressure you, given that you can make your own decisions. It cant drain your money unless your a complete retard. Death can make life easier for the doctors, families, the administration can be profitable, and families would much rather see someone die than watch them suffer. Same with the doctors. They are given the option of masking other treatments, or marking them down as worse when in reality they arent. In Euthenesia, they are given the power to advise you. A load of their back, huh?"

Like I said, no advising. I maintain you have no proof that legalized euthanasia would make it become a popular choice, though. You say it's an easy way out of a problem and so people will start taking it. Well, frankly, so are weed and alcohol! Anyway, as far as I'm concerned there is nothing to suggest euthanasia would become largely popular among anyone but vegetables.


"Good point. But ultimately, power lies in the hands of the doctors, and in the eyes of the law, it's very difficult to distinguish between stating the option, and advising it, given that the manner you present it in is opionated (all doctors have medical opinions.)."

Then you include it in doctor's education. Drill it into their skull that you are NOT allowed to advise euthanasia. Just state the option.



"I still remember my first concussion. Hehe, it was on the playground in grade two. In comparison to yours it was slow, involving accidentally running my forehead onto metal tubing, repeatadly....don't ask. But honestly, if you get any concussion, it's good to stop playing for a few days. The wellbeing of your brain should be more important than a couple of games. Bad concussional headaches could lead to hemmoraging and a heap of other unwanted crap. Seriously, man. Your coach should be telling you guys about the dangers of concussions. They are EXTRMEMELY hazardous."

Our coaches dont let us play if they know we have concussions. Neither do many of our parents. However we are capable by the age of 16 of hiding concussions to a certain level. If you go to the hospital for it though, the best you can hope for is an early return.



"Hey, I doubt we'll ever be able to convince the other person, as we both seem to be firmly set in our beliefs, but I think we can agree on one thing. Death is inevitable"

Agreed!

 

[Latexlover]

Here in Vancouver, B.C. Canada their has been a lot of talk lately about assisted suicide. I am for it. If i'm suffering miserably and no medical treatment can help, then I want to die! It's my life so If I want to end it I should be able to. Free Dr. Kevorkian!!!

 

[Zoidberg]

If it your life, you should be able to decide how it's ended. It's like writing your own screenplay, you decide the ending. But life, generally is like an improvised play and you don't know what's going to happen next.