Ethics in Strategy games II
- Thread starter Pollux V
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That way, you have the advantage of surprise if you know what your opponent is. Personally though I favor the protoss. It's got elegant, tough units that last long.
The big weakness of protoss are the photon cannons, which suck cock. They are absolute trash on defense.
Terran is well rounded, and those tanks are amazing. But it is a weeny bit slow, and the lack of detectors in the beginning makes for the annoying "game which will be decided by the speed of the dark T's or lurkers". Tanks are also very vulnerable if you know how to get them.
Zerg is ... powerful if you have the lightning fast hand/eye/mouse/keyboard/brain coordination. The main art of zerg lies in using zerglings skillfully. You have to know how to make tough zerglings ASAP, scout successfully and herd your enemy to mow them down on your own terms. The lightning fast control of units during battle is the thing that shows how long you've been playing. IF you can do this, then you will rule. Control the game in the begining and end it.
The big weakness of protoss are the photon cannons, which suck cock. They are absolute trash on defense.
Terran is well rounded, and those tanks are amazing. But it is a weeny bit slow, and the lack of detectors in the beginning makes for the annoying "game which will be decided by the speed of the dark T's or lurkers". Tanks are also very vulnerable if you know how to get them.
Zerg is ... powerful if you have the lightning fast hand/eye/mouse/keyboard/brain coordination. The main art of zerg lies in using zerglings skillfully. You have to know how to make tough zerglings ASAP, scout successfully and herd your enemy to mow them down on your own terms. The lightning fast control of units during battle is the thing that shows how long you've been playing. IF you can do this, then you will rule. Control the game in the begining and end it.
I saw this amazing game once where a protoss really raped a zerg. The zerg had 3 hatcheries, while the protoss had 9 nexuses! The protoss guy whipeed out 35 Reavers, hid them away in shuttles and lured the enemy hydras inside his base. He then unloaded all the Reavers... ... brilliant fireworks display for 2 seconds ... ... and all the hydras were slaughtered within those 2 seconds. Surrender after 2 more sec 
It was so cool.
It was so cool.yeah, cool...
I do not like to do early lightning attacks, because I enjoy playing, building defences. And if I destroy or weaken the enemy in the begining then there won't be much of a fun.
In AoE II I remember I always sent large funds of gold and food to my enemies, just to make them stronger and launch larger attack forces.
I always built an idial resource gathering system, combined with trading, so I never felt hungry and always had excess resources.
I do not like to do early lightning attacks, because I enjoy playing, building defences. And if I destroy or weaken the enemy in the begining then there won't be much of a fun.
In AoE II I remember I always sent large funds of gold and food to my enemies, just to make them stronger and launch larger attack forces.
I always built an idial resource gathering system, combined with trading, so I never felt hungry and always had excess resources.
Long range games are retarded, and is the hallmark of newbdom. Believe me, I have seen more Starcraft experts than I would have liked to see. The one who favors long games are the ones who get pounded. You'd better do it if you want to win, and Starcraft is all about winning and whupping other people's ass.
Zergling lightning attacks are the most powerful things in the game. Fortunately for my race, protoss, 2 zealots will stop it. I always adjust my building order to block lightning attacks. I go Nexus to pylon to gateway, and then make 1-2 zealots, while I build more pylons from there. After the second pylon I builc another gateway and after that the assimilator and then the forge. I do the shield upgrade first ASAP. Then I build the building required to make dragoons (forgot name) if I feel like it.
After that, it all depends mostly on how the game is going. I might go for the lightning darktemplar + corsair (disruption web) attack, with some scattered zealots and maybe one or two dragoons. Pound them with something like 17-24 zealots and everything else while you fly corsairs and start spraying the webs. Then drop the DT's and the enemy will never notice them. This one is a real terran killer. Very few can stand up to it.
Or, you could give up and go for the same ole' zealot +dragoon +hightemplar, which can go up to either Reavers or Carriers or both.
I love protoss!! But random is also great for winning as well.
Zergling lightning attacks are the most powerful things in the game. Fortunately for my race, protoss, 2 zealots will stop it. I always adjust my building order to block lightning attacks. I go Nexus to pylon to gateway, and then make 1-2 zealots, while I build more pylons from there. After the second pylon I builc another gateway and after that the assimilator and then the forge. I do the shield upgrade first ASAP. Then I build the building required to make dragoons (forgot name) if I feel like it.
After that, it all depends mostly on how the game is going. I might go for the lightning darktemplar + corsair (disruption web) attack, with some scattered zealots and maybe one or two dragoons. Pound them with something like 17-24 zealots and everything else while you fly corsairs and start spraying the webs. Then drop the DT's and the enemy will never notice them. This one is a real terran killer. Very few can stand up to it.
Or, you could give up and go for the same ole' zealot +dragoon +hightemplar, which can go up to either Reavers or Carriers or both.
I love protoss!! But random is also great for winning as well.
And defenses??? All you need are a few detectors to warn you of attack, use units to defend! (of course this is a protoss standpoint, because those photon cannons suck ass. Well, it's also the leading strategy for winning as a zerg.)
I have seen terran defenses, and they are really scary. But they are slow in the building, so as a zerg I might send out my overlords in the direction of their base (if you memorize the map you can tell where everyone is by their username position on the pregame screen) and scout while I quickly make zerglings. It is fast because all you make is a spawning pool, and then you can start pumping out zerglings (more than one at a time, really good). This requires much skill in handling numerous, fast units. I confess this is beyond me and I fail half the time. But by the time it fails I will have my upgraded hydras ready to kick more ass.
If I get rich, with lotsa hatcheries I will go for air units. I love to see air units get whupped by devourers + mutalisks. Try spraying them with the purple acid and getting their defense down to negative!! The chain attack of the mutas will annihilate them.
If I choose not to, I can make huge armies of Scourges. Cheap and effective. I can bring down a fleet of Carriers in a matter of seconds.
As terran, I do the same thing as my opponents. Terran is wimpy in the beginning and you can not afford to risk a lightning attack if you are not in tip top unit control and finesse condition. It is better to mount a semi early attack with siege tanks and pumped up marines/medics, with maybe a few wraiths. After that, my wraiths will be really busy fending off air attack and protecting my tanks. Science Vessels come in handy (and are crucial), I can either shield my tanks or spray radioactive gas on enemies (really good against zerg). If I can get battle cruisers the game is over. On come the battle cruisers, the nukes, and the tanks.
However this is not the game I prefer. I like to decapitate players early. People complain about this being "cheating" or "not fun" but who cares? There are plenty of players on the battlenet and it is all about winning. Also, facing players with maphacks are an added challenge. You could program an anti maphack but who would bother??
I have seen terran defenses, and they are really scary. But they are slow in the building, so as a zerg I might send out my overlords in the direction of their base (if you memorize the map you can tell where everyone is by their username position on the pregame screen) and scout while I quickly make zerglings. It is fast because all you make is a spawning pool, and then you can start pumping out zerglings (more than one at a time, really good). This requires much skill in handling numerous, fast units. I confess this is beyond me and I fail half the time. But by the time it fails I will have my upgraded hydras ready to kick more ass.
If I get rich, with lotsa hatcheries I will go for air units. I love to see air units get whupped by devourers + mutalisks. Try spraying them with the purple acid and getting their defense down to negative!! The chain attack of the mutas will annihilate them.
If I choose not to, I can make huge armies of Scourges. Cheap and effective. I can bring down a fleet of Carriers in a matter of seconds.
As terran, I do the same thing as my opponents. Terran is wimpy in the beginning and you can not afford to risk a lightning attack if you are not in tip top unit control and finesse condition. It is better to mount a semi early attack with siege tanks and pumped up marines/medics, with maybe a few wraiths. After that, my wraiths will be really busy fending off air attack and protecting my tanks. Science Vessels come in handy (and are crucial), I can either shield my tanks or spray radioactive gas on enemies (really good against zerg). If I can get battle cruisers the game is over. On come the battle cruisers, the nukes, and the tanks.
However this is not the game I prefer. I like to decapitate players early. People complain about this being "cheating" or "not fun" but who cares? There are plenty of players on the battlenet and it is all about winning. Also, facing players with maphacks are an added challenge. You could program an anti maphack but who would bother??
Yes, well, obviously you dont have the intelligence to enjoy a protracted tactical game... which thinking people prefer, because it exercises the mind. You want to play reflex games, go play Quake. Starcraft is a STRATEGY game, not a "oh, lets see who can remember a build order, use it over 1,000 games, and develop the fastest reflexes with a mouse".
I prefer an equal or better opponent, a half hours buildup, and then the lengthy probes and feints involved with trying to find a weak spot.
As for battlenet, your style of gaming has ensured that almost every game is EXACTLY the same... build some cheap forces, rush in, game over. You dont even use half the games capabilities. You don't find doing the same thing over and over somewhat boring?
strategy games are not about fast mouse clicking. they are for developing defence and attack strategies, about managing limited resources and choosing the right actions. If some n00bs think they are very smart by winning a game in the first 5 minutes, let them think so.
The real challange and satisfaction is to win a game that lasts for 5 hours and more.
The real challange and satisfaction is to win a game that lasts for 5 hours and more.
Bladehawk32
Registered Member
New AI in Games
I know i'm a bit late on this. Oh well.
It just occured to me, after reading previous posts a ways up, concerning Lerning AI, and the will to survive.
First we all know of the plain advantages of Computer AI. Its ability to micromanage units amasingley well, its thinking speed is genrally determined on the resources that are allocated to it(Now adays, quite abit), and its scripted goodness(E.X they adapt to some degree)
Now lets add in some variables. Lets give the AI the ability to adapt and learn from its mistakes. And i'm not talking just heay, he attacked me from my left, lets guard the left more. I'm talking along the lines of "Heay, he attacked me with 2 siege tanks and 12 marines, and he managed to defeat my 3 bunkers filled with ghosts, while taking on minimal losses in the process". And i'm talking learning where it writes code itself to an(external?) file, and can pull from it whenever it needs. Couple this with the computers ability to multitask, and you give it the ability to instantley adapt to any situation, to the point where it has already figured out everything that you can do, and has countered them allready. We as humans dont have a chance to adapt as fast as a Computer. Our only advantage right now is Strategy/Tactics, and our ability to learn from out mistakes. Counter our ability to learn, with the computers SUPERIOR ability, and we are left with mereley Strategy and Tactics. Those can be overcome to some end by AI Code. Which brings me to the next subject.
What if you gave the computer something resembeling the Will to Survive? What if you gave it the bare emotional 'programming', so to speak? Must have Health. If odds outnumber, run away and ither regroup, rebuild, or hide. Fight or Flight. That kind of thing. Just giving the AI the ability and the will to survive(Instead of SC AI, where it just sits in its base as you wipe it out)? I mean, sure, it will try to rebuild its command center, but where its base WAS? I the way of the fleet? No, thats not will to survive, thats not its recognition of the fact that if it runs out of buildings it dies. No, thats just its want to collect resources. Giving it a will to survive would definitley make things more challenging. Its like a little branch of Consiousness with 1 track. Live.
Rather like this little tidbit..
IS base Under attack?
-Yes
Check Attack strength(Measure power of attackers in Base range)
Check Defense Strentgh(Measure power of friendley units and defense structures in base)
-Somewhere in here would be provisiions for trying to save the town)
-If AttackSTR>DefenseSTR
-Get count of buildings. Store count of Buildings. Send SCV(S) away from base to save_area(Safe_Area=Area where there are no enemy units)
-Else, if CountBuildings=1, Build S_Depot
-If CountBuildings>1, Find Safe_Area, then Find_Safe_Resources(Resources where there are no emeny units)
-Check the Base(Attack STR and Defense STR)
-If the base Is under attack(Any Attack STR, then execute New_Town_Reg_D
-if base is ovewhelmed(Function which was called at base being attacked start), then execute New_Town_Hev_D, which would put more emphasis on defense rather than rebuilding a new town.
As you can see, that small tidbit(OIbviousley a bit more in AI Code), would insite the AI to at least try and LIVE. Fight or Flight. A small thinking Ability(Am i overwhelmed? Can i win this fight?), and trying to stay Alive if it was overwhelmed(Start new town, heavy D to fend of any new attacks in its start, etc)
I got off topic? No wait no i didint. Anyway i have no care to end this. But i will say, just think of how much more challenging AI would be if it had more human than computer in it.
I know i'm a bit late on this. Oh well.
It just occured to me, after reading previous posts a ways up, concerning Lerning AI, and the will to survive.
First we all know of the plain advantages of Computer AI. Its ability to micromanage units amasingley well, its thinking speed is genrally determined on the resources that are allocated to it(Now adays, quite abit), and its scripted goodness(E.X they adapt to some degree)
Now lets add in some variables. Lets give the AI the ability to adapt and learn from its mistakes. And i'm not talking just heay, he attacked me from my left, lets guard the left more. I'm talking along the lines of "Heay, he attacked me with 2 siege tanks and 12 marines, and he managed to defeat my 3 bunkers filled with ghosts, while taking on minimal losses in the process". And i'm talking learning where it writes code itself to an(external?) file, and can pull from it whenever it needs. Couple this with the computers ability to multitask, and you give it the ability to instantley adapt to any situation, to the point where it has already figured out everything that you can do, and has countered them allready. We as humans dont have a chance to adapt as fast as a Computer. Our only advantage right now is Strategy/Tactics, and our ability to learn from out mistakes. Counter our ability to learn, with the computers SUPERIOR ability, and we are left with mereley Strategy and Tactics. Those can be overcome to some end by AI Code. Which brings me to the next subject.
What if you gave the computer something resembeling the Will to Survive? What if you gave it the bare emotional 'programming', so to speak? Must have Health. If odds outnumber, run away and ither regroup, rebuild, or hide. Fight or Flight. That kind of thing. Just giving the AI the ability and the will to survive(Instead of SC AI, where it just sits in its base as you wipe it out)? I mean, sure, it will try to rebuild its command center, but where its base WAS? I the way of the fleet? No, thats not will to survive, thats not its recognition of the fact that if it runs out of buildings it dies. No, thats just its want to collect resources. Giving it a will to survive would definitley make things more challenging. Its like a little branch of Consiousness with 1 track. Live.
Rather like this little tidbit..
IS base Under attack?
-Yes
Check Attack strength(Measure power of attackers in Base range)
Check Defense Strentgh(Measure power of friendley units and defense structures in base)
-Somewhere in here would be provisiions for trying to save the town)
-If AttackSTR>DefenseSTR
-Get count of buildings. Store count of Buildings. Send SCV(S) away from base to save_area(Safe_Area=Area where there are no enemy units)
-Else, if CountBuildings=1, Build S_Depot
-If CountBuildings>1, Find Safe_Area, then Find_Safe_Resources(Resources where there are no emeny units)
-Check the Base(Attack STR and Defense STR)
-If the base Is under attack(Any Attack STR, then execute New_Town_Reg_D
-if base is ovewhelmed(Function which was called at base being attacked start), then execute New_Town_Hev_D, which would put more emphasis on defense rather than rebuilding a new town.
As you can see, that small tidbit(OIbviousley a bit more in AI Code), would insite the AI to at least try and LIVE. Fight or Flight. A small thinking Ability(Am i overwhelmed? Can i win this fight?), and trying to stay Alive if it was overwhelmed(Start new town, heavy D to fend of any new attacks in its start, etc)
I got off topic? No wait no i didint. Anyway i have no care to end this. But i will say, just think of how much more challenging AI would be if it had more human than computer in it.
Bladehawk32
Registered Member
Lol. Vey interesting
The other day while playing Quake III Arena i consoled <I>Phobos</I> the AI bot in the game that i am his saviour and he mustnt fight.frankly speaking the responses initially were poor,but surprisingly they kept on improving to give it a realistic view.i was amazed at the comprehension of the bot of the game...!!!!
bye!
bye!
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